>>> HELLO EVERYBODY.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> WE'RE NOT RUNNING AWAY.

WE'RE RUNNING IN TO THE FIGHT.

>> TEXAS DEMOCRATS FACE ARREST WARRANTS FOR THEIR ATTEMPTS TO DENY TRUMP'S REDISTRICTING PLANS.

SO WHAT'S THEIR STRATEGY TO FIGHT BACK?

I ASK FORMER DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN JOE KENNEDY.

>>> AND IS EL SALVADOR SLIDING IN TO AUTOCRARY AS THE PRESIDENTIAL TERM LIMITS SCRAPPED I DISCUSS WHAT'S AT STAKE WITH AN INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER.

>>> SAVING PRIVATE ANDRE.

HOW A UKRAINIAN SOLDIER BARELY SURVIVED A RUSSIAN ASSAULT.

>>> AND WE LIE A LOT CLOSER TO NUCLEAR DANGER THAN MOST PEOPLE I THINK REALIZE.

>>> AS WE MARK 80 YEARS SINCE HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI A HISTORIAN DISCUSSES HIS NEW UNLEASHING OF THE ATOMIC BOMB.

>>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOAN COONEY FUND.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES.

BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THE BATTLE IS ON IN TEXAS WHERE REPUBLICANS VOTED TO ISSUE CIVIL ARREST WARRANTS FOR DEMOCRATS WHO FLED THE STATE TO STOP PLANS TO REDISTRICT THE CONGRESSIONAL MAP.

THE REDRAWN BOUNDARIES COULD ALLOW THE GOP TO PICK UP FIVE MORE SEATS IN THE 2026 MIDTERMS.

TEXAS DEMOCRATS INVOLVED SAID THEY ARE RUNNING IN TO THE FIGHT TO STAND UP FOR OUR DEMOCRACY.

HERE IS WHAT'S DEMOCRATIC NATIONAL COMMITTEE CHAIR KEN MARTIN HAD TO SAY ABOUT IT.

>> DONALD TRUMP, GREG ABBOTT, KEN PAXTON SAID THEY WANTED A SHOW DOWN AND THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE GETTING.

THIS IS NOT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF YOUR GRANDFATHER WHICH WOULD BRING A PENCIL TO A KNIFE FIGHT WE ARE GOING TO FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE AND STAND AGAINST THIS UNCONSTITUTIONAL POWER GRAB BY THE REPUBLICANS.

WE CAN'T BE THE ONLY PARTY THAT PLAYS BY THE RULES.

WE HAVE TO STAND UP AND FIGHT BACK RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THIS ISN'T JUST ABOUT PARTISAN POLITICS.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY OR THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THIS IS GOING TO REQUIRE ALL OF US TO CALL IT OUT FOR WHAT IT IS.

IT'S [BLEEP] AND SOMEONE NEEDS TO STAND UP AND FIGHT BACK AND GUESS WHAT?

THAT'S THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

I'M SO PROUD OF THE DECISIONS THAT THOSE HOUSE DEMOCRATS IN TEXAS MADE TO FLEE THE STATE.

>> HOW ARE DEMOCRATS PLANNING TO FIGHT BACK AND WHAT WILL THIS MEAN FOR THEIR MIDTERM CAMPAIGNS?

RECENT POLLING SUGGESTS A CHANGE OF APPROACH IS NEEDED WITH THE WALL STREET POLL SHOWING 63% OF VOTERS HOLD NEGATIVE VIEWS OF THE PARTY.

FORMER DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN JOE KENNEDY AGREES AND SAID HIS PARTY IS FAILING TO MEET VOTERS WHERE THEY ARE.

WITH THAT IN MIND HE STARTED GROUND WORK PROJECT A NONPROFIT AIMED TO REBUILD DEMOCRATIC IS HE ALSO OF COURSE PART OF THE KENNEDY FAMILY AND GRANDSON OF ROBERT F KENNEDY AND HE JOINS FROM BOSTON.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, JOE KENNEDY, FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.

LET'S START IN TEXAS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP TODAY, THIS MORNING, SAYING HE IS ENTITLED TO THOSE FIVE SEATS THERE.

IN THE BROADER FIGHT FOR FAIR ELECTIONS AND VOTING RIGHTS HOW IMPORTANT IS THIS MOMENT NOW AND WHAT SHOULD DEMOCRATS BE PREPARED TO DO TO DEFEND THAT?

>> FIRST THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

SECOND, IN A DEMOCRACY NOBODY IS ENTITLED TO ANYTHING.

I THINK --PRESIDENT MISREAD THE CONSTITUTION ON THAT ONE.

I DON'T CARE HOW MUCH YOU WIN A STATE BY IN THE ELECTION DOESN'T ENTITLE YOU TO THE VOICES AND VOTES OF ANY OF THE PEOPLE ACROSS THOSE COMMUNITIES.

LOOK THE BOTTOM LINE HERE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AND THAT WE HAVE SEEN PARTICULARLY OVER THE COURSE OF NOW TWO TIMES OF --TWO ROUNDS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION ARE AN EFFORT BY THIS PRESIDENT AND HIS ENABLERS TO COMPLETELY TEAR UP THE RULE BOOK TO TRY TO CONSOLIDATE POWER AND JUST A POWER GRAB.

WHILE YOU MAY THINK THAT -- THAT'S FINE.

THEY CAN DO THAT IN DEEP RED TEXAS THAT'S ACTUALLY NOT WHAT A DEMOCRACY IS IS ABOUT.

YES, POLITICS DOES HAVE ELEMENTS OF POWER TO IT OF COURSE.

OF COURSE IT DOES.

AS YOU SEE PLAY OUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY YOU DO THAT IN TEXAS, CALIFORNIA CAN DO THE SAME, ILLINOIS CAN DO THE SAME.

THAT --.

>> SHOULD THEY?

>> I MEAN LISTEN I THINK PART OF THE CHALLENGE SUBURB HEARD THE CHAIRMAN TALK ABOUT IS YOU KNOW DISARMMENT DOESN'T SOLVE A PROBLEM THE CHALLENGES OF THAT DOESN'T SOLVE A PROBLEM.

WHAT YOU NEED IS A PRESIDENT TO --THE ADMINISTRATION TO UNDERSTAND THAT WHEN YOU WIN THE ELECTION YOU ARE A PRESIDENT OF EVERYBODY.

IT DOESN'T GIVE YOU A RIGHT TO CRAN YOUR VIEW DOWN THE THROATS OF EVERY AMERICAN DESPITE THE FACT THAT YOU THINK YOU WON.

NOW, YES THAT DOES MEAN THAT PRESIDENT CAN ENACT THE AGENDA AND BUILD CONSENSUS IN CONGRESS TO TRY TO PASS BILL THAT THEY SUPPORT.

FINE.

THAT'S THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS.

TRYING TO CHANGE THE RULES, TRYING TO CONSOLIDATE POWER BECAUSE YOU KNOW YOU ARE GOING TO LOOSE AND REMEMBER THAT.

THIS IS NOT --THEY AREN'T DOING THIS OUT OF A POSITION OF STRENGTH.

IT'S BECAUSE THEY KNOW THEY ARE GOING TO LOOSE A MIDTERM ELECTION AND THEY ARE TRYING TO HOLD ON FOR POWER AS LONG AS THEY CAN.

SO IN THEIR MINDS IT IS WORTH BREAKING THE RULES BECAUSE THE WORST THING THEY CAN MA'AM IS THAT THE DEMOCRATS SHOULD CONTROL THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

IT'S MIND BOGLING THAT THIS IS WHERE WE ARE AS A COUNTRY.

>> THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN EFFECTIVE TO SAY THAT, LISTEN.

EVERYBODY DOES IT.

THERE'S CORRUPTION AND HE USED THAT EXAMPLE TODAY IN THIS DECISION BY TEXAS IN TERMS OF GOING AFTER THESE FIVE SEATS.

HE SAID AND HE USED YOUR STATE AS AN EXAMPLE AND SAID HE WON 40%, IT WAS 36% OF THE STATE AND HE SAID THAT THERE ARE NO REPUBLICAN DISTRICTS.

IT IS 9-0 FOR DEMOCRATS IN TERMS OF JERRYMANDERED DISTRICTS THERE.

WHAT DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> THAT'S NOT THE RESULT OF A JERRYMAND.

>> IT CAME FROM MASSACHUSETTS.

>> IT D IT IS ONE OF OUR FAMOUS EXPORTS.

THE CHALLENGE AT THE MOMENT IS IF HE CAN SHOW ME A MAP THAT IS NOT JERRYMANDERED TO SUPPORT REPUBLICAN VOICES.

THE FACT YOU WON JUST OVER 30% OF A VOTE AND YOU THINK THAT ENTITLES YOU TO A SEAT IS RIDICULOUS.

THAT IS DIFFERENT THAN TRYING TO CHOP UP THE CITY OF AUSTIN TEXAS INTO SO MANY LITTLE AUSTIN ARE DISENFRANCHISED.

THIS IS NOT --THIS IS NOT WHAT DEMOCRACY IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT.

THAT BEING SAID THE FACT THAT'S PRESIDENT SAID IT.

THE FACT THAT THIS PRESIDENT SAID IT I --I MEAN --YOU MAY BE DIFFERENT.

HE SAYS A LOT OF THINGS.

PLENTY THAT AREN'T TRUE OR ROOTED IN REALITY.

THE FACT REMAIN THAT WE CAN GET IN A FOR T AT DEMOCRAT, REPUBLICAN ABOUT HOW DO YOU PROTECT YOUR OWN OR YOU CAN ACTUALLY ENGAGE IN THE COMMUNITY BUILDING PROCESS TO MAKE SURE THAT OUR GOVERNMENT REFLECTS THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE.

THE FORMER IS --WE ARE TRYING TO DO --IS PUT THOSE PEOPLE FIRST IN ENGAGE IN A LONG TERM COMMUNITY BUILDING SUPPORT THAT DOESN'T GO KNOCK ON THE DOORSAYING VOTE BLUE OR RED BUT CARES ABOUT YOUR COMMUNITIES AND YOUR ABILITY TO PROJECT THE FUTURE OF THAT COMMUNITY BECAUSE IT'S YOUR HOME AND TO TRY TO BUILD UP FROM THE GROUND UP.

THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD BE DOING IF IT'S DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN.

THAT'S THE POINT --THAT'S THE LIKE TO LIVE IN.

>> LET ME GET TO THE WORK YOU ARE DOING AT GROUND WORK.

I THINK IT SPEAKS TO SOME OF THE POLLING DATA THAT WE ARE SEEING NOW FROM THE WALL STREET JOURNAL IN TERMS OF NOW AMERICANS VIEW THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

IT'S THEIR LOWEST RATING WITH ONLY 8% OF VOTERS SEEING IT FAVORABLE.

WHAT'S BEHIND THIS IMAGE CRISIS?

YOUR VIEW?

>> I THINK THERE'S -- UNFORTUNATELY A LOT BEHIND IT AND PERCEPTION IS REALITY IN A LOT OF POLITICS.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I --I REMEMBER MY OWN TIME IN OFFICE AND MY FIRST CAMPAIGN ONE OF MY FIRST EVENTS I GOT SOME --WHICH WAS --WHEN THE SKY FALLS ON YOU REMEMBER ONE THING.

GO KNOCK ON A DOOR.

IF YOU KNOCK ON A HUNDRED DOORS IN A DAY PEOPLE TELL YOU TO GET OFF THEIR PORCH, PEOPLE SAY THINGS YOU DON'T WANT TO HEAR.

WHEN YOU ASK PEOPLE WHAT IS ON THEIR MIND THEY WILL GIVE YOU A DIRECTION.

WHAT WE ARE HEARING, THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS HEARING -- SHOULD BE HEARING VERY CLEARLY FROM A BROAD AREA OF PEOPLE IS THEY AREN'T BUYING WHAT WE ARE SELLING NOT JUST POLICY BUT THE WAY THE MESSAGE IS COMMUNICATED TO THEM ACROSS A BROAD AREA.

THEY AREN'T BUYING IT.

IT MEANS YOU HAVE TO RESET.

YOU GO BACK DOWN TO --WHEN THAT SKY FALLS START TALKING TO PEOPLE.

ITS BEEN THE QUESTION OF WHAT YOU CAN DO TO MAKE THEIR LIVES BETTER THEN DO IT.

DON'T COME WITH A WHITE PAPER.

COME WITH A WILLINGNESS TO ACTUALLY SOLVE A PROBLEM AS DEFINED BY A LOCAL COMMUNITY AND THAT'S THE TYPEWORK WE ARE TRYING TO DO, GROUND WORK.

IT IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE IT'S THE BASE FUNDAMENTAL BUILDING BLOCKS OF WHAT A DEMOCRACY IS SUPPOSED TO BE AND WHAT HEALTHY COMMUNITIES ARE SUPPOSED TO HAVE.

>> AND THE NEW YORK TIMES TRACED YOUR TRAVELS DOWN TO THE MISSISSIPPI DELTA, REPEATING YOUR GRANDFATHER'S 1967 TRIP FIGHTING POVERTY.

WHAT DID YOU LEARN ABOUT THE REALITIES FACING RURAL AMERICA AND WHAT CAN DEMOCRATS LEARN FROM YOUR TRAVELS AND YOUR CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE?

I WAS ESPECIALLY STRUCK BY SOME OF THE CONVERSATIONS YOU HAD ALONG THE WAY AND THE PAST FEW YEARS WITH VOTERS AND REPUBLICANS STATES THAT WERE WILLING TO TALK TO YOU LIKE WEST VIRGINIA FOR EXAMPLE ABOUT WHAT THEY SAY WASHINGTON IS TUNING OUT.

>> LOOK, I THINK --FAR BE IT FROM ME TO GIVE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY ADVICE ON STUFF ANY MORE.

IT IS A PERSPECTIVE AND I THINK THAT PARTICULARLY AT THIS MOMENT WHEN WE SEE CHALLENGES WE ARE CONFRONTING AS A COUNTRY GOING OUT AND LISTENING, ASKING A QUESTION AND LISTENING TO THE RESPONSE THAT HOW PEOPLE ARE PERCEIVING YOUR PARTY, YOUR POLICIES AND PLATFORM IS INSTRUCTIVE.

WHEN YOU GO TO WEST VIRGINIA AND TALK TO AN ENVIRONMENTAL ORGANIZER WHOSE FAMILY CAME UP THROUGH WORKING IN COAL MINES WHO SAID HOW COME THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY THINKS WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO WORK?

THAT SHOULD BE A CALL TO SAY SOMETHING WE ARE DOING ISN'T LANDING RIGHT.

NO ONE IN DEMOCRATIC PARTY INTENDS TO SEND THAT MESSAGE BUT THAT'S WHAT THEY HEARD.

IF THAT'S WHAT THEY ARE HEARING WE --WE NEED TO CHANGE NOT JUST THE MESSAGE AND THE MESSENGERS BUT UNDERSTANDING WHAT WE ARE SAYING AND HOW PEOPLE ARE RECEIVING IT.

WHEN YOU ASK THAT QUESTION PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO TELL YOU.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT FOOD AND NUTRITION IN MISSISSIPPI THE FACT THAT THERE ARE FOOD DESERTS BECAUSE THE POVERTY IS TO BAD MANY COMMUNITIES CAN'T AFFORD TO GET A WHOLE SELLER TO DELIVER FRESHGROCERIES BECAUSE THE COMMUNITY CAN'T AFFORD TO BUY THEM.

THAT'S NOT JUST A QUESTION OF SAYING PUT IN A STORE BUT HOW DO YOU UPLIFT THE COMMUNITY TO BE ABLE TO AFFORD THE FOOD AND THE MISSISSIPPI DELTA WHICH IS ONE OF --THE RICHEST AGRICULTURAL AREAS WE HAVE IN THE NATION.

IT'S JUST THE CROPS GET SO, IF YOU START BY LISTENING TO FOLKS AND YOU START BY ASKING THEM WHAT IT IS THAT THEY WANT TO SEE IN THEIR COMMUNITIES AND WHAT THEIR PERCEPTION IS --IT IS THE MOMENT IT'S A WIDE DISPARITY BETWEEN THE TWO.

THAT'S REALLY WHERE HAVE YOU TO START AND THAT'S WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO.

YOU REPRESENT A PARTY THAT HAS LONG TOUTED BEING A BIG TENT PARTY AND THAT'S REALLY AT A CROSSROADS HERE NOW WITH A SPLIT, I WOULD ARGUE, BETWEEN MODERATES AND PROGRESSIVES YOU LOST YOUR 2020 SENATE BID SEAT EVEN WITH THE KENNEDY BRAND AGAINST A MUCH OLDER CANDIDATE AND I SUBURB THAT NOT AS AN AGEIST BUT THERE ARE MANY SAYING ITS SOMEONE LIKE YOU, THERE NEEDS TO BE YOUNGER GENERATION DEMOCRATS OUT THERE SPEAKING TO VOTERS, CONNECTING WITH VOTERS AND YET THAT DIDN'T WORK FOR YOU.

NOW AS WE ARE SEEING THE PARTY STILL DEALING WITH THIS ISSUE WHAT ARE SOME OF THE LESSONS THAT YOU HAVE LEARNED ALONG THE WAY PERHAPS THAT YOU COULD AN OPPORTUNITY AND A FLOOR HERE TO TALK ABOUT THE SPLIT IN THE PARTY IN TERMS OF THE DIRECTION THAT IT'S GOING IN.

>> LOOK I THINK POLITICS AT ITS MOST BASIC IS ABOUT MEETING PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE PEOPLE CAN DO THAT ACROSS A WIDE VARIETY OF AGES.

SOME ARE GOOD AT DOING SO THAT ARE VERY YOUNG, SOME THAT ARE GOOD THAT ARE MORE SENIOR IN LIFE.

THE AGE DOESN'T HAVE TO BE -- I DON'T THINKS IN A DISQUALIFYING TIME PERIOD OR AGE THAT MEANS YOU SHOULDN'T BE QUALIFIED FOR OFFICE.

CAN YOU DO THE JOB?

I THINK THAT MY PERSPECTIVE ON THIS IS WHEN YOU GET TO A POINT WHERE, YOU KNOW THE POWERS OF BEING THE INCUMBENT ESSENTIALLY ALLOWS SOMEONE TO BE ABLE TO CONTINUE IN THAT POSITION WHERE THEY DIDN'T --AREN'T NECESSARILY ABLE TO GIVE IT EVERYTHING THAT THEY NEED AND DESERVE WE HAVE A PROBLEM.

IF YOU ARE ABLE TO CONTINUE TO DELIVER TO DO SO THEN THAT'S FINE GO OUT AND EARN YOUR I HAD A DIFFERENT VISION AS TO WHAT THIS POSITION SHOULD BE.

I FELL SHORT IN THAT RACE.

I SUPPORT THE --OBVIOUSLY RESPECT THE DECISION OF MASSACHUSETTS VOTERS AND WE MOVE ON.

I THINK --I WOULD HOPE THAT PEOPLE COULD VIEW THE RESULTS BY SAYING YOU GIVE IT A SHOT EVEN IF YOU FALL SHORT IT DOESN'T MEAN YOUR LIFE IS OVER.

THERE'S PLENTY OF OTHER WAYS TO STILL FIND --THAT ARE MEANINGFUL.

CONTRIBUTE BACK TO THE PROGRESS OF A NATION, YES OF COURSE WE --THERE'S PLENTY OF OTHER WAYS TO DO SO AND HEROS DOING IT EVERY DAY THAT WOULD LOVE TO HAVE YOUR SUPPORT AND EXCITEMENT AS WE TRY TO DO SO.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ON A MORE PERSONAL NOTE THE FAMILY DYNAMICS WHICH I THINK YOU HANDLE GRACEFULLY AND POLITICALLY WITH YOUR UNCLE ROBERT F KENNEDY JR. AND AN INTERVIEW JUST EARLY DAYS IN TO THIS ADMINISTRATION YOU MADE CLEAR THAT WHILE YOU LOVE AND SUPPORT YOUR UNCLE AS A FAMILY MEMBER YOU QUESTION SOME OF NOW THAT WE HAVE SEEN THOSE POLICIES AND VIEWS COME TO PASS, EVEN SOME THAT HE VOWED NOT TO DO, AND CONCERNS ABOUT VACCINE SKEPTICISM ARE YOU MORE CONCERNED ABOUT THE DIRECTION THAT HE IS TAKING HHS?

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE?

SIX, EIGHT MONTHS IN NOW FOR THIS ADMINISTRATION.

>> I HAVE GRAVE CONCERNS ABOUT THE DIRECTION OF THIS COUNTRY UNDER A TRUMP PRESIDENCY AND UNDER LEADERSHIP WE HAVE SEEN COMING FROM THE WHITE HOUSE THROUGH THE --THE HHS AND PLENTY OF OTHER CABINET SECRETARIES AS WELL.

I, YOU KNOW, FAMILY IS FAMILY.

WE ARE A VERY PUBLIC FAMILY.

WE HAVE GONE THROUGH, YOU KNOW, TRIUMPHS AND TRAGEDIES.

NO ONE IN MY FAMILY AND I THINK BOBBY AS WELL --I CAN'T SPEAK FOR HIM BUT I THINK I CAN ON THIS.

NOBODY ENJOYS THE FAMILY DYNAMICS HERE.

HIS KIDS ARE FAMILY I WISH THEM ALL WELL.

HE IS DOING.

HE WOULDN'T DO IT OTHERWISE I HAVE A HARD TIME PERSONALLY RECONCILING THE VALUES THAT I WAS BROUGHT UP IN AND THE WORK THAT SO MANY MEMBERS OF OUR FAMILY HAS DONE TO TRY TO --ON THE ONE HAND INCREASE ACCESS TO HEALTH CARE FOR MILLIONS BECAUSE IT'S A BASIC RIGHT THAT WE ARE ALL GOING TO NEED AND SHOULD HAVE AND THE IDEA THAT ITS SUCCESS TO TAKE IT AWAY FROM 15 MILLION PEOPLE WHICH IS WHAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS NOW DONE.

YOU GO TO THE MISSISSIPPI DELTA AND THE POOREST PART OF THE STATE WHICH EVEN MEDICAID EXPANSION WAS DENIED BY THE STATE HOUSE WHERE PEOPLE HAVE SOME OF THE WORSE HEALTH CARE OUTCOMES IN AMERICA AND WE THINK THAT TAKING HEALTH KARA WAY FROM THOSE --THE FEW THAT HAVE IT THERE ON MEDICAID, THAT THAT'S A GOOD THING?

ONE OF THE BIGGEST WELFARE SCANDALS IN THE NATION IN MISSISSIPPI BECAUSE THE GOVERNOR AND FUNDS AND BUILT A GYM FOR BRETT FAVRE'S DAUGHTER TO PLAY VOLLEYBALL.

WE ARE SAYING THAT THE THING WE NEED TO DO TO SHAPE UP WELFARE AND MEDICAID IS TO CLAMP DOWN ON PEOPLE THAT WILL GET A LETTER AND MISS AND AND LOOSE THEIR HEALTH CARE.

>> AND IT IS NOTABLE THAT PER THAT WALL STREET JOURNAL REPORTING THE ONLY AREA WHERE VOTERS SUPPORTED DEMOCRATIC POLICIES MORE THAN REPUBLICAN WAS IN THE AREA OF HEALTH CARE.

IT DOES SEEM TO BE A LOT OF ALARM ABOUT SOME OF THE DEVELOPMENTS WE ARE SEEING THERE.

JOE KENNEDY, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

PLEASE COME BACK.

IT WAS GREAT TO SPEAK WITH YOU.

>> PLEASURE.

THANK YOU.

>> NEXT TO EL SALVADOR WHERE THE PRESIDENT CALLS HIMSELF THE WORLD'S COOLEST DICTATO R. LAST WEEK THE ELECTION EXTENDED PRESIDENTIAL TERMS TO SIX YEARS.

THOUGH THE PRESIDENT IS FOR HIS CRACK DOWN ON GANGS HIS ARREST AND TARGETING OF CIVIL LIBERTIES HAVE RAISED FEARS OF HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES.

IN THE UNITED STATES PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS EMBRACED THE PRESIDENT WORKING TOGETHER TO DEPORT IMMIGRANTS TO THE PRISON IN EL SALVADOR OFTEN WITHOUT ANY CLEAR EVIDENCE OF CRIME.

>> WE KNOW THAT YOU HAVE A CRIME PROBLEM, TERRORISM PROBLEM THAT YOU NEED HELP WITH.

WE ARE A SMALL COUNTRY.

WE CAN HELP.

WE CAN DO IT.

>> THEY CARLOS IS THE FOUNDER OF A NEWSPAPER AND JOINS THE PROGRAM NEW.

CARLOS WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

FOR PEOPLE IN VIEWERS WHO ARE NOT FAMILIAR WITH ELSALVADOR'S PRESIDENT TELL US ABOUT HOW HE ROSE TO POWER.

>> HI.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

THE PRESIDENT WAS A MEMBER OF THE LEFT PARTY.

HE GOT INTO A FIGHT WITH THE PARTY WHEN HE WAS MAJOR OF SAN SALVADOR AND DECIDED TO RUN AS A THIRD CANDIDATE WITHOUT EVEN A PARTY.

PEOPLE WERE SO TIRED OF THE POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT THAT THEY VOTED FOR THIS PERSON WITHOUT A POLITICAL PARTY.

THAT HAPPENED IN 2019.

SINCE THEN ITS BEEN A POWER GRABBING EXERCISE WITH THE APPLAUSE OF MOST OF THE POPULATION.

>> AND HOW HAS HE MANAGED TO MAINTAIN SUCH SOARING APPROVAL RATINGS?

WE TALKED ABOUT IN THE INTRODUCTION THERE THE SHARP DROP IN CRIME IN THE COUNTRY NOW EL SALVADOR IS CLAIMING THAT ITS HOMICIDES RATE ARE LOWER THAN THAT EVEN IN CANADA.

THAT'S QUITE THE ACCOMPLISHMENT IN A RELATIVELY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

IS THAT REALLY THE BASIS FOR HIS POPULARITY RIGHT NOW?

>> THAT IS A BIG PART BUT THAT I THINK THAT THE MAIN PARTS OF THESE ARE FIRST PEOPLE ABSOLUTELY TIRED OF THE OTHER POLITICAL PARTIES WHICH SHOWED A GREAT CAPACITY FOR CORRUPTION.

SECOND, HIS MASTERFUL MANAGEMENT OF SOCIAL NETWORKS OF THE NEW LANGUAGE THAT PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR.

NEXT TO THAT IS OF COURSE THE REDUCTION ON HOMICIDES THAT FIRST WAS DUE OF AN AGREEMENT THAT HE HAD WITH THE GANGS AND THEN DUE TO THE REPRESSION WAVE WE HAVE BEEN LIVING THROUGH FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS.

>> WE SHOULD NOTE THAT YOU ARE IN EXILE NOW.

HAVE YOU BEEN IN EXILE FOR THREE YEARS.

TELL US WHY YOU LEFT EL SALVADOR?

>> PART OF HIS STRATEGY IS TO SUPPRESS ANY CRITICAL VOICES.

IT'S HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDERS, ENVIRONMENTAL ACTIVISTS, ANY CRITICAL VOICE IF IT'S POLITICAL.

OPPOSITION.

THIS IS THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE END OF OUR CIVIL WAR THAT THE INTERNATIONAL HAS DECLARED SALVADOR --SOME PRISONERS OF CONSCIENCE.

TORTURE IS BACK TO THE PRISONS.

WE ARE ENTERING THE 4th YEAR ON THE STATE OF EXCEPTION THAT LIMITS OUR CIVIL RIGHTS NARCOTIC ALLOWS A PERSON TO BE ARRESTED WITHOUT AN ARREST ORDER AND YOU HAVE NOW A COUNTRY WITH THE HIGHEST PRISON RATE IN THE WORLD, EVEN HIGHER THAN THE UNITED STATES.

>> WE CAME TO KNOW THE PRESIDENT WITH THAT FAMOUS OVAL OFFICE VISIT AND THE CONTROVERSY AROUND SENDING MIGRANTS TO EL SALVADOR.

MOMENT AGO THE REPORTING THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAD WORKED IN SECRET WITH SOME GANGS.

CAN YOU TALK MORE ABOUT WHAT YOU UNCOVERED IN YOUR REPORTING IS THAT ULTIMATELY ONE OF THE FACTORS THAT LED TO YOUR EXILE?

>> YES IN 2020 WHEN HE REALLY DECLARED HISINTENTIONS NOT ONLY TO STAY IN POWER BUT ALSO TO USE THE POLICE AND THE ARMY TO SUPPORT HIS POLITICAL GOALS THEN HE STARTED TO TARGET US.

WE STARTED PUBLISHING HIS DEALS WITH THE GANGS BUT ALSO HIS BIG CORRUPTION SCANDALS.

WHAT WE DOCUMENTED GANG LEADERS ENTERING AND LEAVING THE PRISONS.

WE DOCUMENTED HOW HE HAD FREED MS13 THAT BY THE WAY WERE WANTED FOR EXTRADITION, REQUIRED FOR IT BY THE UNITED STATES.

HE FREED THEM IN SECRET.

WE DOCUMENTED ALL THIS.

THEY ARE NOW IN NEW YORK.

THEY WERE CAPTURED IN MEXICO AS THREE PERSONS THERE, UNDOCUMENTED BUT FREE.

THEY ARE NOW IN NEW YORK AND APPARENTLY THE DEAL THAT HE CAUGHT WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, PART OF THE DEAL WAS TO SEND SOME OF THE GANG LEADERS BACK TO EL SALVADOR SO THEY CAN TESTIFY IN A NEW YORK COURT THE DETAILS OF THEIR AGREEMENT THEY HAD WITH HIM.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE TIMING THEN OF LAWMAKERS CHOOSING LAST WEEK TO ABOLISH PRESIDENTIAL TERM LIMITS AND THE FACT IT WAS MET WITH, YOU KNOW, WITHOUT THE --OUTRAGE THAT MANY WOULD HAVE EXPECTED IN THE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY?

A NUMBER OF VOTERS SHRUG GED OR SAID THEY WERE FINE WITH THAT BETWEEN BEING ABLE TO WALK THE STREETS AT NIGHT AND NOT HAVE THEIR STORES ROBBED THIS WASN'T A TOP PRIORITY FOR THEM.

>> THERE WERE --YOU TOUCH A VERY INTERESTING POINT.

THERE WERE NO PROTESTS BUT THERE WERE NOT ANY BIG CELEBRATIONS EITHER.

THE CONSTITUTIONAL REFORMS WERE PASSED WITHOUT ANY DISCUSSION.

NOT ONLY WITHOUT ANY PUBLIC DISCUSSION BUT WITHOUT ANY CONGRESSIONAL DISCUSSION.

IT'S A VIOLATION OF -- HE IS IN POWER UNCONSTITUTIONALLY ALREADY BUT HE CONTROLS ALL THE CONSTITUTIONS OF THE STATE.

CONSTITUTIONS ARE BASICALLY TO PUT LIMITS TO POWER.

IF A PERSON LIKE THE PRESIDENT IS ABLE TO VIOLATE SEVEN CONSTITUTIONAL ARTICLES AND NOW EVEN MORE IT'S MOUNTING --THE AND HESUFFERS NO CONSEQUENCES FOR IT.

INSTITUTIONAL CONSEQUENCES.

THAT IS A DICTATORSHIP.

WE TALK ABOUT THE STEEP DROP IN CRIME IN THE COUNTRY THAT'S NO SMALL FEAT FOR SURE BUT WE HAVE SEEN ASLOWING ECONOMY AND SOME POLITICAL ANALYSTS HAVE BEEN VIEWING THAT AS PERHAPS GOING BACK TO MY QUESTION ABOUT TIMING.

WHY THEY WOULD MAKE THIS CHANGE RIGHT NOW BECAUSE IN THEORY WITH THIS CHANGE HE COULD BE IN OFFICE I BELIEVE FOR A TOTAL OF 14 YEARS.

WHAT IS THE STATE OF THE ECONOMY THERE RIGHT NOW?

I KNOW GROWTH LAST YEAR SLIPPED ONE FULL PERCENTAGE POINT.

>> IT'S A VERY GOOD POINT.

HE JUST --THE NEW LEGISLATION APPROVED ON FRIDAYSHORTENS THESE PRESIDENTIAL TERM SO THE NEXT PRESIDENTIAL TERM WE START --WILL START TOGETHER WITH THE CONGRESSIONAL TERMS.

THIS IS NOT ONLY SPECULATION BUT THE ONLY EXPLANATION I CAN FIND IS THAT HE IS FEARING THAT HIS CONGRESS DOMINATION MAY BE IN DANGER AND SO HE WANTS ALSO TO CAMPAIGN FOR CONGRESS.

THE ECONOMY IS RECEDING.

WE HAVE BIG ECONOMIC PROBLEMS THAT ARE BEING HIDDEN BECAUSE THERE IS VERY FEW ALTERNATIVE VERSIONS OF THE OFFICIAL NARRATIVE IN EL SALVADOR.

PEOPLE ARE AFRAID TO SPEAK UP.

>> WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO YOU IF YOU CAME HOME NOW?

>> WELL, YOU SHOULD HAVE TO ASK BUT I CAN TELL YOU SOMETHING.

DURING THE LAST TWO MOSS MORE THAN A HUNDRED HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDERS AND REPORTERS HAVE HAD TO LEAVE THE COUNTRY INCLUDING MOST OF THE MEMBERS OF MY ORGANIZATION BECAUSE WE RECEIVED CONFIRMATION THAT THERE WERE SEVEN ARREST ORDERS AWAITING TO BE PUT IN PLACE BY THE AUTHORITIES.

THEN WHEN MOST OF THEM LEFT THE COUNTRY SOME OF THEM THOUGHT IT WAS TIME TO COME BACK AND WE RECEIVEDCONFIRMED INFORMATION THAT THERE WAS A POLICE INFORMATION WAITING FOR THEM AT THE AIRPORT AND THEY WERE GOING TO BE ACCORDING TO THE INFORMATION WE RECEIVED, THE AUTHORITIES WERE PLANNING TO PUT DRUGS IN TO THE BANS AND ACCUSE THEM OF DRUG TRAFFICKING SO NO ONE COULD SAY THE REGIME WAS GOING AGAINST FREEDOM OF THE PRESS.

SO, THIS IS A CASE WITH A LOT OF REPORTERS AND HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDERS HAVE ALREADY BEEN PUT IN PRISON AND THERE'S WORK CAMPAIGNS TO FREE THEM.

THEM, AMONG THEM RULE RIGHTS LAWYERS.

>> AT THE SAME TIME LOOKING AT HOW HE HAS BEEN PROPELLED.

HOW THE COUNTRY HAS BEEN PROPELLED TO THE GLOBAL STAGE WITH THE AUDIENCE AND THE WHO IS DESCRIBED HIM AS FANTASTIC.

CLEARLY SEEMS TO HAVE EMBOLDENEK HIM AND AT LEAST WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION THE UNITED STATES TURNING A SHOULDER PERHAPS LOOKING THE OTHER WAY AT SOME OF THE BACK SLIDING OF DEMOCRACY AS YOU ARE NOTING IN THE COUNTRY GOING ON RIGHT NOW.

CARLOS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TAKING THE TIME.

WE REALLY APPRECIATE IT.

>> WE ARE TURN NOW TO RUSSIA'S GRINDING SUMMER OFFENSIVE IN UKRAINE.

THE PRESIDENT'S DEADLINE FOR MOSCOW TO MAKE A PEACE DEAL EXPIRES IN THREE DAYS TIME BUT THERE'S NO SIGN OF PUTIN RELENTING ON THE FRONTLINES.

UKRAINIANS ARE REFUSING TO GIVE UP.

WE HAVE THIS STORY OF ONE INJURED SOLDIER WHO DEFIED THE ODDS.

>> THIS RUSSIAN ASSAULT BRUTAL EVEN THROWING LAND MINES IN TO BUNKERS LEFT HIS THREE FELLOW SOLDIERS DEAD NEXT TO HIM.

ANDRE WITH HIS LEG WOUNDED UNABLE TO RUN THOUGHT LIKE SO MANY UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS IN TINY ISOLATED POSITIONS PINNED DOWN BY RUSSIAN DRONE THAT HE WAS DONE.

BACK AT HIS COMMAND BUNKER WATCHING ON DRONES THEY HAD AN IDEA, MAYBE ANDRE HAD THE STRENGTH TO CYCLE OUT.

SO THEY ATTACHED AN ELECTRIC BIKE TO A DRONE LIKE THIS MOVING TO SLOWLY IN PIECES TO THE FRONT.

IT WAS DROPPED TO ANDRE AND THEN HE CYCLED OUT.

THE UKRAINIANS TRIED TO ENSURE DRONES BUT THAT WASN'T ENOUGH.

ANDRE HIT A LAND MINE.

THE DRONE OPERATORS HEART SINK.

HAD IT ALL COME TO NOTHING IN THEN THIS TINY FIGUREEMERGED, LIMPING OUT OF THE SMOKE, SOMEHOW ALIVE WALKING ON.

GREETED BY UKRAINIAN AND HELPED INTO ANOTHER BUNKER WHERE HE TO WAIT TWO MORE DAYS FOR RESCUE.

NEED IS THE MOTHER OF INVENTION IN UKRAINE BUT NOTHING CAN BEAT LUCK.

>> THIS WEEK MARKS 80 YEARS SINCE UNITED STATES BOMBS WERE DROPPED ON HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI, KILLING AN ESTIMATED 200,000 PEOPLE WHILE IT ENDED THE SECOND WORLD WAR THE TRAGIC LEGACY OF THE BOMBINGS STILL LINGERS TODAY.

IMPORTANT MOMENT IN THE DEVIL REACHED TOWARD THE SKY WHICH GATHERS ACCOUNTS OF THOSE INVOLVED IN THE BOMBINGS FROM THE CREW OF THE BOMBERS TO THE DECISION MAKERS.

THE OUGHT FOR JOINS US TO DISCUSS THE POLITICAL, DEEPLY PERSONAL IMPACT OF HOW THE BOMBS CAME TO BE.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> THIS IS YOUR THIRD ORAL HISTORY BOOK YOU DID ONE ON D DAY, YOU DID ONE ON 9/11.

WHY THE FORMAT OF AN ORAL HISTORY ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE NOT REALLY INTERVIEWING MOST OF THE PEOPLE.

IT'S GATHERING THEIR INTERVIEW FROM THE PAST.

>> EXACTLY.

THIS BOOK IS COMING OF COURSE AT THE 80th ANNIVERSARY THIS MONTH OF THE BOMBINGS AND THE END OF WORLD WAR II.

I THINK THIS 80th ANNIVERSARY FEELS SO IMPORTANT TO A LOT OF PEOPLE BECAUSE IT MARKS THE UNOFFICIAL PASSING OF THE LAST OF THAT GREATEST GENERATION.

SO, FOR ME WHAT I WANTED TO DO WITH THIS PROJECT AND WITH MY D DAY BOOK LAST YEAR WAS THIS IS A MOMENT WHEN WE HAVE EFFECTIVELY EVERY FIRST PERSON MEMORY OF WORLD WAR II THAT WE ARE EVER GOING TO HAVE AND SO AS THESE EVENTS SLIP FROM LIVING MEMORY INTO HISTORY I WANTED TO TRY TO TAKE READERS BACK TO THESE EVENTS IN THE SHOES OF THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED THEM FIRSTHAND.

I LOVE NARRATIVE HISTORY BUT THERE'S OFTEN A SENSE THAT EVENTS ARE SORT OF NEATER, CLEANER MORE PREORDAINED THAN THEY ACTUALLY FELT TO ANY OF THE PARTICIPANTS AT THE TIME.

I THINK THERE'S A UNIQUE POWER IN ORAL HISTORY OF SORT OF GOING BACK IN THE WORDS OF THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED THEM TO A EVENTS WAS UNCERTAIN TO THEM.

YOU KNOW YOU ARE GOING BACK AND SORT OF HEARING FROM THE SCIENTISTS AT MOMENTS WHEN LIKE THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER HITLER WOULD GET THE BOMB FIRST THEY DON'T KNOW THAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD --THE ALLIES WOULD WIN WORLD WAR II.

THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER THE BOMB WOULD WORK AT ALL.

>> WHAT DID YOU DISCOVER THAT WAS DIFFERENT THAN BASED ON THEM TALKING AT THE TIME?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT COMES THROUGH WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DIVERSITY OF VOICES IN A PROJECT LIKE THIS IS I THINK WE OVER SIMPLIFY THE STORY OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT SO OFTEN TO JAY ROBERT OPPENHEIMER AND HIS BAND OF SCIENTISTS ON A MESA IN LOS ALAMOS WHAT YOU REALLY SEE IN THE FULL SCOPE AND SCALE OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT IS HOW MUCH OF THIS WAS ABOUT AMERICA'S INDUSTRIAL MIGHT.

THE SECRET CITIES THAT WE BUILT IN OAKRIDGE TENNESSEE AND HANFORD WASHINGTON WHERE REFINED OTHER URANIUM IN FACTORIES AND CITIES THAT HAD BEEN CARVED OUT OF ORCHARDS AND, YOU KNOW MOUNTAIN VALLEYS.

BY THE END OF THE WAR HOUSED AND EMPLOYED 100,000 PEOPLE EACH.

YOU KNOW THE BUS SYSTEM IN OAKRIDGE TENNESSEE IN AUGUST 1945 WHEN THE BOMB WAS DROPPED WAS ONE OF THE TEN LARGEST PUBLIC TRANSIT SYSTEMS IN THE UNITED STATES AND NO ONE KNEW IT EXISTED AT ALL AND THE CITY DIDN'T APPEAR ON ANY PUBLIC MAP ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> YOU KNOW JUST HEAR THAT AND READING IT MAKES ME THINK COULD WE DO THAT?

WE CAN'T BUILD A RAIL SYSTEM IN CALIFORNIA AFTER 20 YEARS.

>> YEAH.

I THINK THAT THERE IS A LOT BE SAID ABOUT THE --YOU KNOW WHAT THIS ERA MEANT IN TERMS OF NEWS CONCUSSION AND THE ABILITY OF THESE MOUNTAIN COMMUNITIES AND DESERT COMMUNITIES IN EASTERN WASHINGTON TO KEEP SECRETS BACK THEN THAT COULD NEVER HOLD IN THE AGE OF THE INTERNET.

I THINK THERE IS, YOU KNOW THERE'S SOME VERY IMPORTANT MODERN RELEVANCES OF LOOKING BACK AT THIS PROJECT TODAY.

FIRST THE MANHATTAN PROJECT REWRITES THE WAY THAT GOVERNMENT THINKS ABOUT SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY AS A CORE NATIONAL STRENGTH.

YOU KNOW THERE'S A DEEP IRONY IN THE FIRST COUPLE OF YEARS OF THE BOOK WHERE YOU HAVE THIS GROUP OF MOSTLY JEWISH REFUGEE SCIENTISTS PLEADING THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT TO LAUNCH AN ATOMIC BOMB EFFORT AND THE MILITARY WANTING NOTHING TO DO KNOW BASICALLY LIKE SCIENCE HAS NO PLACE IN THE MILITARY, YOU KNOW.

THE MILITARY IS ALL ABOUT YOU KNOW WAR FIGHTING LOGISTICS AND MORALE AND WE DON'T NEED A WEAPON LIKE THIS AND OF COURSE THE MILITARY GETS PRETTY EXCITED ABOUT THE BOMB A FEW MONTHS LATER AFTER PEARL HARBOR.

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE CHANGES THAT --YOU HAVE THEM IN THE BOOK IS BUSH WHO COMPARED THIS TO BUILDING THE PAIR MIDS AND HE IS THE ONE WHO PUTS TOGETHER THAT GOVERNMENT PRIVATE, ACADEMIC GROUP THAT DOES SO MUCH.

TELL ME ABOUT HIS ROLE.

>> YEAH.

THIS IS OF COURSE WHERE AMERICA SORT OF STARTS TO KNIT TOGETHER GOVERNMENT AND SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A CUTE QUOTE WHERE THE STORY THAT WE TELL OF WORLD WAR II IS ABOUT WHERE THE BATTLES ARE FOUGHT.

YOU KNOW D DAY, OKINAWA.

>> OMAHA BEACH.

>> EXACTLY.

WHERE THE WAR IS REALLY WON IS IN LABS AT MIT, WHERE RADAR AND THE PROXIMITY FUSE WAS DEVELOPED, AT THE LABS AT LOS ALAMOS AND THE CODE BREAKING ROOMS IN THE UK.

YOU KNOW AS MUCH AS WE THINK OF WORLD WAR II AS A STORY OF THE SERVICEMEN IN EUROPE AND THE PACIFIC IT REALLY IS A WAR THAT IS AS MUCH A STORY OF SCIENTISTS.

>> BUT IT'S NOT JUST THE SCIENTISTS WHAT STRUCK ME WAS THE FORD MOTOR PLANT AND WILLOW RUN AND OUR ABILITY WHICH I FEEL WE HAVE LOST A LITTLE BIT NOW TO DO THE MANUFACTURING AT SCALE QUICKLY.

>> THAT'S REALLY WHERE THE MAGIC OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT COMES IN.

THERE'S A REASON THAT THE MANHATTAN PROJECT TODAY REMAINS, YOU KNOW A CODE WORD FOR DARING AND AUDACITY.

PART OF THAT IS IN THE EARLY MONTHS YOU HAVE PEOPLE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO STARTING TO MAP OUT ON PIECES OF PAPER.

REMEMBER THIS IS AN ERA THEY ARE WORKING WITH SLIDE RULERS.

THERE ARE NO COMPUTERS AIDING THIS ENGINEERING MOST OF THE WAR.

WITH THE SLIDE RULERS AND BUTCHER PAPER THEY ARE STARTING TO MAP OUT HOW TO BUILD AND REFINE PLUTONIUM IN ORDERS OF KILOGRAMS WHEN IT'S NEVER BEEN SEEN BY THE NAKED HUMAN EYE AND IT LITERALLY EXISTS IN THE UNITED STATES ONLY IN SMALL AMOUNTS.

E YOU TALK ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE WHO CONVINCED THE MILITARY AND FOR THAT MATTER PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT TO DO THE BOMB A LOT OF THEM THE JEWISH REFUGEES.

TELL ME ABOUT THE ROLE OF REFUGEES AND IF THAT HAS RELEVANCE TODAY WHEN WE AREN'T ALLOWING IN AS MANY FOREIGN SCIENTISTS.

>> I THINK THAT UNFORTUNATELY TWO --TO MANY PLACES FEELS LIKE A HISTORY BOOK THAT COULD BE FILED UNDER CURRENT EVENTS IN THE BOOKSTORE BECAUSE, AGAIN, THIS --ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT WOULD HAVE NEVER GOTTEN OFF THE GROUND WITHOUT THE LEADERSHIP AND THE IMAGINATION OF THE JEWISH REFUGEE SCIENTISTS WHO FLEE, COME TO THE UNITED STATES IN THE 30s AND 40s AND IN THAT SENSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT REALLY STANDS OUT FOR ME IN THE BOOK IS WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE ATOMIC BOMB AND THE 80th ANNIVERSARY WE LEAP TO THINKING ABOUT JAPAN AND HIROSHIMA AND THE END OF THE WAR IN THE BOMB IS ROOTED IN EUROPE AND THE RISE OF HITLER AND IT'S IN FACT THE MOTIVATING FACTOR FOR THE SCIENTISTS IS THEY KNOW THE GERMAN SCIENTISTS LEFT BEHIND WHO THEY FEAR ARE AT WORK THEMSELVES ON THE ATOMIC BOMB AND SO THEIR MOTIVATION DAY IN, DAY OUT FOR MOST OF THE THREE YEARS OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT IS TO BUILD THE ATOMIC BOMB BEFORE HITLER DOES.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT OAKRIDGE AS A WONDERFUL SCENE OR DISCUSSION IN THE BOOK ABOUT THE YOUNG WOMEN IN OAKRIDGE THE HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATES IN THE RACE I THINK IT'S TO PRODUCE PLUTONIUM.

>> URANIUM, YEAH.

>> AND TELL ME ABOUT HOW THAT WAS IMPORTANT.

>> YEAH.

THIS IS --SORT OF AGAIN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SORT OF INDUSTRIAL POWER OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ROLE OF, YOU KNOW, FORD MOTOR COMPANY BUILDING BOMBERS OR DUPONT AND TENNESSEE EAST MAN END UP THE BIG CORPORATE PLAYERS IN THE MANHATTAN PROJECT AND IN THAT FACILITY TENNESSEE EAST MAN IS LOOKING AROUND AT WHAT IT'S LABOR WORKFORCE COULD BE AS THEY NEED TO HIRE THOUSANDS AND TENS OF THOUSANDS OF WORKERS AND REMOTE MOUNTAIN TENNESSEE OUTSIDE KNOXVILLE.

THEY SETTLE ON HIGH SCHOOL GIRLS FROM THE SURROUNDING COMMUNITY.

YOU KNOW THAT'S WHO IS LEFT IN THE WORKFORCE BY 43, 44.

YOU HAVE ALL THE FANCY CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY PHD'S SAYING, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T THINK THESE WOMEN CAN ACTUALLY OPERATE THESE URANIUM REFINING MACHINES AND THEN THEY PUT THEM IN A HEAD TO HEAD TEST AND IT TURNS OUT THE TEEN GIRLS IN TENNESSEE OUT PREFORMED THE PRODUCTION AND WHAT IS JUST SO INCREDIBLE AGAIN ABOUT THE SECRECY OF THIS IS MOST OF THOSE WOMEN WHO WERE KNOWN AT THE TIME AS CALUTRON GIRLS WORKED ON THOSE --YOU KNOWMACHINES 24 HOURS A DAY, THREE SHIFTS A DAY.

REFINING AND CREATING URANIUM AND HEARD THE WORD URANIUM FOR THE FIRST TIME WHEN HARRY TRUMAN ANNOUNCES THE EXISTENCE OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT ON AUGUST 6th 1945.

THEY NEVER KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING BEHIND THOSE MACHINES AND WHAT THEY ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THE WAR EFFORT.

>> WHEN YOU TALK AT PEOPLE NOT REALLY KNOWING ALL THE STEPS IN THE PROCESS THAT THEY WERE CONTRIBUTING TO THAT GOES ALL THE WAY UP TO HARRY TRAUMAN WHO DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE BOMB UNTIL ROOSEVELT DIED AND HE BECAME PRESIDENT.

TELL ME ABOUT HOW THAT WORKED.

MOST AMAZING SCENES IN THE BOOK IS FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT DIED, SPRING 1945, HARRY TRUMAN IS SWORN IN AND THE SECRETARY OF WAR SORT OF STAYS AFTER THE FIRST CABINET MEETING AND PULLS HIM ASIDE AND SAYS THERE'S SOMETHING I SHOULD COME TALK TO YOU ABOUT.

THEN SORT OF SHOWS UP WITH THIS BRIEFING WHERE HE BRINGS HARRY TRUMAN IN TO THE FOLD FOR THE FIRST TIME ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT.

THE IDEA OF THE ATOMIC BOMB AND THE FACT THAT AT THAT POINT THEY ARE MERE WEEKS AWAY FROM HAVING THE FIRST WORKING NUCLEAR --NUCLEAR DEVICE IN THE WORLD.

>> AND THERE'S A DECISION MADE TO DROP THE BOMB BUT IT'S NOT ACTUALLY A CLEAR DECISION IT'S NOT LIKE THEY HAVE A VERY FORMAL PROCESS IN TRUMAN MAKING A DECISION.

IT SEEMS ALMOST LIKE JUST -- INSTINCT THAT HE DOES IT.

HOW IS THAT DECISION MADE AND DID HE HAVE ANY REGRETS?

>> YEAH.

I SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN THE BOOK TALKING ABOUT WHAT YOU MAY CALL THE PERMISSION STRUCTURE FOR THE ATOMIC BOMB IN THE SPRING AND SUMMER OF 1945 BECAUSE YOU KNOW WE LOOK BACK ON THAT EVENT AS SO TRANSFORMING, YOU KNOW.

THE ONLY TIME WE EVER USE THESE WEAPONS IN COMBAT IN HUMAN HISTORY BUT AT THE TIME WE WERE INVOLVED IN THIS BRUTAL AND DEADLY WAR WITH JAPAN IN THAT SPRING OF 1945, C THERE'S BOMBING MISSIONS AGAINST JAPAN, FIRE BOMBING TOKYO AND OPERATION MEETING HOUSE THAT SPRING THAT KILLS 100,000 JAPANESE IN A SINGLE NIGHT.

THE DEADLIEST NIGHT OF CONFLICT ONTO BOMB A TOTAL OF 66 66 JAPANESE CITIESES, SINGLE MISSION RAIDS DESTROYING 30, 40, 50, EVEN 70% OF THESE CITIES IN SINGLE NIGHTS.

>> DID THE SECRETARY OF WAR -- WASN'T HE ONE OF THE ONES THAT UNDERSTOOD WE ARE GOING INTO A NEW, RA IF WE DROP THIS BOMB?

>> YES AND THEY DO UNDERSTAND THIS IS A BIGGER BOMB THAT THIS IS A DIFFERENT --A DIFFERENT TYPE OF WEAPON BUT THEY --THEY DON'T NECESSARILY THINK ABOUT IT IN THE SAME SORT OF STARK TERMS OF CIVILIAN DEATHS I THINK WE NOW THINK OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

>> IN RETROSPECT WERE WE RIGHT TO DROP THE FIRST BOMB?

>> IT'S A COMPLICATED QUESTION I DON'T THINK WE WILL EVER SATISFY IT ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

YOU KNOW I THINK ALL OF THE FOLLOWING ARE TRUE.

THE DROPPING OF THE BOMB CERTAINLY SAVES AMERICAN LIVES.

IT PROBABLY SAVES JAPANESE LIVES.

I MEAN ONE OF THE THINGS PEOPLE LOOSE SIGHT OF IS JAPAN IS IN THE MIDDLE OF A NAVAL BLOCKADE WITH WIDESPREAD FAMINE AND 200,000 JAPANESE CIVILIANS DYING EVERY MONTH OF STARVATION BY THE SUMMER AND FALL OF 1945.

AT THE SAME TIME I THINK THAT IT IS HARD TO LOOK BACK AND THINK THAT THESE ARE WEAPONS WE COULD EVER USE AGAIN.

I THINK THAT --.

>> WE USED THEM AGAIN IN NAGASAKI AGAIN A FEW DAYS LATER.

>> I MEAN IN FUTURE CONFLICTS.

IVE THINK CONFLICTS.

THE ORGANIZING PRINCIPLE OF GEO POLITICS AFTER THE WAR BECOMES NEVER USING THEM AGAIN.

>> ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THAT?

AT THIS MOMENT AND I THINK PART OF THIS MOMENT IN GEO POLITICS IS WE LIE A LOT CLOSER TO NUCLEAR DANGER THAN MOST PEOPLE I THINK REALIZE.

WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN THIS YEAR, YOU KNOW CONFLICT BETWEEN INDIA AND PAKISTAN WHICH ARE THE TWO LARGEST NUCLEAR ARSENALS TO COME INTO OPEN CONFLICT WE HAVE SEEN THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAELI RAIDS OVER IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROBLEM AND WE HAVE SEEN, YOU KNOW, SPREADING CONVERSATIONS ABOUT NUCLEAR SPREAD IN EUROPE AND ASIA AS THE UNITED STATES APPEARS TO PULL BACK FROM SOME OF ITS GEO POLITIC ALLIANCES.

>> YOU WENT THROUGH HUNDREDS OF ACCOUNTS OF THE SURVIVORS OF THE BOMB.

TELL ME WHAT YOU LEARNED.

>> YEAH.

THE FINAL CHAPTERS OF THE BOOK, YOU KNOW, I GO BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN THE MANHATTAN WORKERS AND THE BOMBER CREWS THAT DELIVER THESE BOMBS AND THEN THE TRAGEDY ON THE GROUND IN HIROSHIMA AND NAG ASAKI.

THE ACCOUNTS FROM THOSE CITIES CITIES AS SEARING AS ANY MEMORIES I HAVE COME ACROSS IN MY HISTORICAL RESEARCH.

I THINK AGAIN ONE OF THE THINGS I REALLY WANTED TO DO WITH THIS PROJECT IS OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS WE WILL SEE THE PASSING OF THE LAST SURVIVORS OF THOSE BOMBS.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO ME TO CARRY THEIR STORIES FORWARD AS A REMINDER ABOUT WHY THESE WEAPONS ARE NOT LIKE ANY OTHER WEAPONS IN THE HUMAN ARSENAL AND WHY WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING THAT WE CAN IN OUR TIME TO CARRY FORWARD UNDER DREAM THAT THEY ARE THE LAST SURVIVORS OF A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

>> GARRET, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> WALTER, ALWAYS A PLEASURE.

>>> BACK IN 2020 ON THE 75th ANNIVERSARY OF THE BOMBINGS WE SPOKE TO ONE OF THE FEW REMAININGSURVIVORS AFTER EXPERIENCING FIRSTHAND THE DEVASTATING EFFECTS OF NUCLEAR WAR SHE HAS DEDICATED HER LIFE CAMPAIGNING FOR DISARMMENT.

EFFORTS THAT LED TO HER ACCEPTING THE NOBLE PEACE PRIZE FOR THE CAMPAIGN TO ABOLISH NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

HERE SHE TAKES US BACK TO AUGUST OF 1945 AND SHARES THE MEMORIES WHICH STILL HAUNT BUT MOTIVATE HER TODAY.

>> YOU WERE JUST A 13-YEAR-OLD GIRL WHEN THAT BOMB WAS DROPPED ON HIRSOHIMA.

WHAT WERE YOU DOING AT THE TIME AND WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER?

>> I REMEMBER EVERYTHING VIVIDLY.

DOING?

I WAS A 13-YEAR-OLD GRADE 8 STUDENT IN JR. HIGH SCHOOL.

JAPAN WAS LOSING EARLY --THEY HAD TO RECRUIT US THE YOUNG CHILDREN TO DO THE WORK FOR THE ARMY.

WE WERE IN THE HUGE WOODEN BUILDING ON THE SECOND FLOOR.

ONE MILE AWAY FROM THE GROUND ZERO.

THEN AT 8:00 WE STARTED THE MORNING ASSEMBLY AND WE WERE SPEAKING --GIVING US THE CHEER THEN I SAW THE BLUEST WHITE FLASH.

I SAW STILL HAVE THE SENSATION OF FLOATING UP IN THE AIR AND WHEN I REGAINED CONSCIOUSNESS I FOUND MYSELF IN THE TOTAL DARKNESS AND TOTAL SILENCE AND I TRIED TO MOVE MY BODY BUT I I KNEW I WAS FACING DEATH.

THEN I STARTED HEARING FAINT VOICES OF MY GIRLFRIENDS AROUND AND THEY WERE ASKING FOR HELP FROM THEIR MOTHERS, FROM THEIR GOD AND THEN SOMEONE STRONG MALE VOICE SAID DON'T GIVE UP, DON'T GIVE UP, KEEP PUSHING, KEEP KICKING, I'M TRYING TO FREE YOU.

SO WITH THIS MAN IN THE DARK I WAS RESCUED.

I WAS --I WAS ABLE TO COME OUT OF THE BUILDING BUT THE MOST OF THE THREE GIRLS WERE BURNED TO DEATH ALIVE.

>> YOU HAVE USED YOUR MEMORY AND THAT EXPERIENCE TO SPEND A LIFETIME OF BEING AGAINST NUCLEAR ARMS AND THE DANGERS ONLY AND YOU YOUR FELLOW SURVIVORS CAN TALK ABOUT.

THE DANGER OF NUCLEAR WHAT DO YOU THINK NOW ABOUT THE STATE OF SECURITY IN THAT REGARD AROUND THE WORLD.

>> WE HAVE BEEN KEPT AS HOSTAGE FOR ALL THESE YEARS.

WE --EACH ONE OF US HUMAN BEING DESERVE BETTER THAN THIS.

I FEEL VERY DISTURBED AND AS MR. OBAMA SAID BEFORE HE LEFT THE WHITE HOUSE I THINK, UNITED STATES IS THE ONLY NATION WHICH HAS ACTUALLY USED IT SO THEREFORE UNITED STATES HAS SPECIAL MORAL RESPONSIBILITY TO LEAD WORK TOWARD NUCLEAR DISARMING, YEAH, I THINK THAT'S THE WORD --NO FOR THE WORLD WITHOUT NUCLEAR WEAPON.

THAT WAS HIS FAVORITE EXPRESSION.

SOY AM BEGGING AMERICAN PEOPLE.

WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO LIVE IN THIS CONDITION.

I HAVE THE IMAGE OF MASSIVE DEATH.

THIS STAYS WITH ME AND AS -- AND YES THOSE IMAGES HAVE BEEN GUIDING ME AND NOT TO GIVE UP MY STRUGGLE BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN THE DECENT LIFE AND HUMANRIGHTS OF EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL ON THIS PLANET.

>> SUCH A POWERFUL CONVERSATION.

AND BE SURE TO TUNE IN TOMORROW FOR THE CONVERSATION WITH LEGENDLY FILM DIRECTOR JAMES CAMERON AND FORMER ENERGY SECRETARY ABOUT 80 YEARS OF NUCLEAR THREAT AND WHY CAMERON FEELS COMPELLED TO TELL THE STORY OF HIROSHIMA ON SCREEN.

THAT CONVERSATION TOMORROW NIGHT.

>> BREAKING NEWS, BREAKING NEWS, BREAKING NEWS.

LET'S GO.

>> THIS IS PARIS'S LAST NEWSPAPER HAWKER IN ACTION SELLING DAILIES IN THE FRENCH CAPITOL FOR FIVEDECADES AT 73 HE IS KNOWN AS A LOCAL INSTITUTION AND NOW HE IS SET TO RECEIVE ONE OF FRANCE'S HIGHEST HONORS FOR HIS SERVICE.

SERVING PAPERS FOR SO MANY YEARS.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR THE PROGRAM TONIGHT F YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP EACH NIGHT SIGN UP FOR THE NEWS LETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.