>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> THE PEOPLE THAT SURVIVE ARE ALMOST PRECIOUS WITNESSES.

>> 80 YEARS SINCE AMERICA DROPPED THE BOMB ON HIROSHIMA, THE NAGASAKI AND THE ACCLAIMED DIRECTOR JAMES AND FORMER ENERGY SECRETARY TELL ME WHY IT IS VITAL TO REMEMBER AND TO RAISE AWARENESS.

>>> ALSO AHEAD.

>> IT IS STILL NECESSARY TO COMPLETE THE DEFEAT OF THE ENEMY IN GAZA.

>> AND YAHOO TOTAL OF GAZA AND IS IT TYPE OF PUBLIC OPINION TURNING IN ISRAEL?

>> IF YOU HAVE INJUSTICE AND NO LONGER ENFORCEMENT, THEN YOU NO LONGER HAVE DEMOCRACY.

>> VITAL DEMOCRACY UNDER THREAT?

TWO U.S. IMMIGRATION JUDGES SOUND THE ALARM AFTER BEING DISMISSED BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

>> >>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

THE SYLVIA A AND SIMON B PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK GLESSNER, THE FILAMENT M D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G PETERSON AND JONES FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM, PATRICIA COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY AND AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO OUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

80 YEARS AGO TODAY, AMERICA DROPPED THE ATOMIC BOMBS ON HIROSHIMA, THEN ON NAGASAKI.

THE WHOLE WORLD WAS CHANGED FOREVER.

BACK IN 2015, ONE SURVIVOR TOLD THIS PROGRAM ABOUT THE MOMENT HE SAW A HUGE WHITE FLASH.

>> THERE WAS A HUGE BANG AND A BLAST FROM ABOVE AND I WAS KNOCKED TO THE GROUND.

I HAD BEEN DIRECTLY HIT BY THE BOMB AND I THOUGHT THAT WAS THE END OF ME.

I WAS STILL CONSCIOUS.

I OPENED MY EYES SLIGHTLY, BUT EVERYTHING WAS BLACK AND I COULDN'T SEE ANYTHING.

ALL OF THE HOUSES AROUND ME HAD BEEN DESTROYED.

>> THREE DAYS LATER, AS WE SAID, THE SAME WHITE FLASH HIT NAGASAKI.

THE TWO WEAPONS KILLED OVER AND FROM THEIR RADIOACTIVE LEGACY.

A NUMBER OF SURVIVORS DWINDLE AND SO TO DO THE MEMORIES AND WARNINGS FOR THE MAYOR OF HIROSHIMA SAYS THAT THE WORLD MUST REMEMBER A NOT A LOT OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS STATES TO BECOME THE NORM.

LATER IN THE PROGRAM, WE TALKED TO THE ACCLAIMED DIRECTOR JAMES CAMERON OF MEMORY AND AWARENESS THROUGH FILM AND CULTURE, BUT TODAY'S WAR IN THE MIDDLE EAST, A NEW THREAT FROM ISRAEL AGAINST GAZA AND TO THE SURVIVING HOSTAGES.

A PLAN FOR A FULL MILITARY TAKEOVER REPORTEDLY BEING PUSHED BY ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU, BUT REPORTEDLY OPPOSED BY CHIEF MILITARY WHO CALLED THE DECISION A TRAP FOR HIS FORCES AND POSSIBLE DEATH SENTENCE FOR THOSE REMAINING HOSTAGES.

IN THE MEANTIME, PRESIDENT TRUMP SEEMS TO BE GIVING ISRAEL A GREEN LIGHT.

>> WE ARE THERE NO TRYING TO GET PEOPLE FED AND THAT IS WHAT I'M FOCUSED ON AS FAR AS THE REST OF IT.

I REALLY CAN'T SAY THAT IT'S GOING TO BE PRETTY MUCH UP TO ISRAEL.

>> PHOTOS OF WIDESPREAD HUNGER IN GAZA CONTINUED TO SPARK INTERNATIONAL BACKLASH AND A GROWING NUMBER OF ISRAELIS TAKEN TO THE STREETS AND ALSO SPEAKING OUT.

EMMANUEL IS A FRENCH ISRAELI JOURNALIST WHO IS JOINING ME FROM TEL AVIV.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN I FIRST ASK YOU ABOUT COVERING THIS HORRENDOUS SITUATION IN YOUR COUNTRY?

WHAT DO YOU KNOW MORE OR NOT ABOUT WHAT NETANYAHU THE PRIME MINISTER MAY BE PROPOSING?

WHAT IS A CONQUEST TO TAKE OVER?

>> GOOD EVENING AND THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON YOUR SHOW.

THE QUESTION OF WHAT IS THE PLAN WHEN WE HEAR OF CONQUERING GAZA IS THE QUESTION, I THINK.

THE LAST REPORTS COMING OUT OF THE LOCAL MEDIA AND ISRAEL TALKING ABOUT GETTING INTO GAZA CITY AND MAYBE OVER THERE FOR A MONTH AND OTHER PLACES IN THE CENTER OF THE GAZA STRIP WHERE THE HAS NOT BEEN ACTING MILITARY AWAY FOR THE LAST MONTH YET.

THEN, MAY BE PUSHING OUT THE POPULATION TOWARDS THE SOUTH.

WE SEE SOME IMMIGRATION ORDERS GIVEN TODAY TO PART OF THE POPULATION IN GAZA.

IS THIS THE PLAN?

THE PLAN IS SUPPOSED TO BE DISCUSSED AND VOTED MAYBE DURING THE CABINET REUNION TOMORROW EVENING IN ISRAEL WE DO NOT KNOW YET IF THAT'S GOING TO BE SUBMITTED OVER THERE WHAT IS PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU PUSHING FOR?

THE CHIEF OF STAFF IS NOT KEEN AND DOESN'T THINK IT'S THE RIGHT WAY TO TO OCCUPY THE TRIP, BECAUSE IT WOULD ENDANGER THE HOSTAGES THAT REMAIN ALIVE, 20 OF THEM.

THE HOSTAGES ARE IN THE AREA OF GAZA THAT HAVE NOT BEEN OCCUPIED BY IDF.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 25% OF THE GAZA STRIP WHERE IT IS NOT OCCUPYING IT.

>> YOU MENTIONED WHAT CHIEF OF STAFF HAS SAID AND THAT HAS BEEN REPORTED AND AN OPPOSITION LEADER ACTUALLY SAID, I TOLD NETANYAHU THE ARK IDEA OF OCCUPYING GAZA IS A VERY BAD ONE.

WE WILL PAY TOO HEAVY OF A PRICE FOR IT.

YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING NOT JUST THE WAR, BUT THE ISRAELI REACTION TO THE WAR AND TO THE DEVASTATION IN GAZA SINCE OCTOBER 7th.

WHAT ARE THE POLLS SAYING AND PEOPLE IN PUBLIC OPINION SAYING ABOUT A POTENTIAL FULL-SCALE OCCUPATION OF GAZA?

>> I THINK IT IS TOO EARLY TO KNOW, BECAUSE WHAT WE JUST DISCUSSED.

WE DO NOT KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE PLAN IS, BUT ALSO BECAUSE IT IS NOT ADOPTED YET AND WE DON'T KNOW IF IT IS ACTUALLY GOING TO HAPPEN.

THERE IS A SOURCE TALKING TO JOURNALISTS IN ISRAEL SAYING THAT THE SOURCE IS AROUND PRIME MINISTER APPARENTLY SAYING THAT ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN BETWEEN TODAY AND TOMORROW AND THAT DONALD TRUMP U.S. PRESIDENT AS WE HEARD IS TALKING ABOUT HUMANITARIAN PLAN, SO WE DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN FOR THE NEXT 24 HOURS, BUT WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT THERE ARE VERY ELOQUENT VOICES AGAINST ANY OCCUPATION OF THE GANJA --GAZA STRIP.

THE POLLS FROM THE SURVEYS FOR THE LEX WEEKS AND MONTHS CLOSE TO 70% OF THE POPULATION IN ISRAEL IS ASKING AND DEMANDING AN END TO THE WAR.

THE REASON IS BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION IN FIGURES ARE CONVINCED THAT THE ONLY WAY TO GET HOSTAGES ON HOME IS TO GO FOR A DEAL THAT WE LEADS TO THE END OF THE WORLD.

THEY DO NOT BELIEVE WHAT IS CALLED MILITARY PRESSURE IS GOING TO BE EFFICIENT TO GET THE HOSTAGES HOME AND WE HAVE SEEN THAT IT HAS NOT BEEN UNTIL NOW.

>> THERE IS A RECENT POLL BY ISRAEL WHICH FOUND THAT 52% OF ISRAELIS APPARENTLY SUPPORT RENEWED JEWISH SETTLEMENT IN GAZA.

WE ALSO KNOW THAT THE CHIEF OF STAFF AND OTHERS REPORTEDLY SAYING THAT ANY FULL-SCALE OCCUPATION AND INVASION WOULD BE LETHAL FOR THE REMAINING HOSTAGES.

TELL ME HOW PEOPLE ARE BEGINNING OR CONTINUING TO TRY TO PROTEST THE MAIN DEMAND, WHICH IS TO BRING HOSTAGES, ESPECIALLY AFTER THE HORRENDOUS HAMAS RELEASED OF PICTURES VIDEO ARE AT LEAST TWO OF THE SURVIVING HOSTAGES LOOKING EMACIATED BEYOND WORDS.

>> THOSE VIDEOS, TWO YOUNG MEN IN THEIR 20s THAT HAVE LOST ACCORDING TO HEALTH REPORTS.

HALF OF THEIR BODY WEIGHT AND IS ACTUALLY PREPARING HIS OWN BRAVE AND THIS IS PROPAGANDA, BUT IT'S ALSO HAPPENING THE WAY THEY LOOK, THEY ARE SO SKINNY AND WEAK THAT IT'S HORRIFYING.

THE FAMILIES OF COURSE AGONY AND IT HAS BEEN A SHOCK FOR THE POPULATION.

IT HAS BEEN ON EVERY TV BROADCASTED, OF COURSE.

THERE IS A SENSE OF BEING HOPELESS.

SEE THE ISRAELIS IN THE STREETS TONIGHT OR SO WHEN WE SPEAK FOR THE LAST DAYS AND IT HAS BEEN LIKE THAT EVERY WEEK OVER AND OVER AGAIN ASKING FOR THE RELEASE OF HOSTAGES THROUGH A DEAL AND IT IS STILL GOING ON, BUT THERE IS A FEELING OR WHAT IS HAPPENING ON THE GROUND THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING ACCORDING TO THE PLAN AND DECIDES THAT THE PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU AND NOT ACCORDING TO THE PUBLIC OPINION WHAT HE CLAIMS THAT THE POLLS WERE TALKING ABOUT WERE ACTUALLY FAKE AND FABRICATED AND NOT SHOWING THE REAL PUBLIC OPINION.

>> EMMANUELLE, THERE IS ALSO QUESTION ABOUT NOT SHOWING THE REAL IMAGES OF WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA.

THEY ALSO EMACIATED GAZA CHILDREN, WOMEN AND ADULTS, JUST LIKE THE STARVING HOSTAGES THAT THEY HAVE ALSO LOST HALF THEIR BODY WEIGHT.

A LOT OF THEM SAY THAT.

I KNOW THAT IT'S BEEN REALLY HARD TO BREAK THROUGH IN ISRAELI MEDIA.

TELL ME ABOUT IT.

CHANGE RECENTLY.

THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT CHANGE IN THE WORLD'S REACTION TO WHAT'S GOING ON, BECAUSE OF ALL OF THESE IMAGES COMING OUT IN THE REAL STARVATION PROBLEM IN GAZA.

WHAT ARE ISRAELIS ARE SEEING, THINKING AND SAYING NOW THAT ME BE CHANGING?

>> I THINK FOR THE SAKE OF THE DISCUSSION, WE HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO YOUR AUDIENCE THAT IN ISRAEL, SOCIETY IS NOT LIVING A POSTTRAUMATIC EVENT AFTER OCTOBER 7.

THE ISRAEL SOCIETY IS STILL STUCK IN OCTOBER 7 AND FOR REALISTIC REASONS AS WE TALKED GRID HOSTAGES, 20 OF THEM ALIVE AND 30 NOT ALIVE OR STILL IN GAZA AND THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY FOR SOCIETY TO START A HEALING PROCESS WHILE THEIR LOVED ONES ARE STILL HELD BY HAMAS IN GAZA.

SOLDIERS HAULING IN THE WAR AND THIS IS THE GRIEF AND PAIN OF IS REALLY SOCIETY IS HUGE.

THAT WOULD EXPLAIN A BIG PART OF WHY WE KNOW FROM SURVEYS THAT ONLY 35% OF ISRAELIS WOULD SAY THAT THEY HAVE AN INTEREST IN WHAT'S GOING ON IN GAZA TALKING ABOUT THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION.

IT'S OF COURSE A LOW NUMBER, BUT NOT THAT LOW.

35%.

ISRAELIS DO NOT RECEIVE FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS, THE PICTURES AND FOOTAGE FROM GAZA ON ISRAELI MAINSTREAM MEDIA.

IT IS AVAILABLE ON SOCIAL MEDIA AND OF COURSE THERE ARE SOME NEWS SHOWS AND NEWSPAPERS COVER IN GAZA ALL DAY LONG.

MAYBE NOT ALL DAY LONG, BUT ON A DAILY BASIS AND ALL THE INFORMATION IS OUT THERE.

THERE IS NO CENSORSHIP.

THE CENSORSHIP IS APPLIED VOLUNTARY OR MAYBE NOT A CONSCIOUS WAY SOMETIMES IN A WAY THAT IT IS DIFFICULT TO TALK ABOUT THE PLACE THAT YOUR ENEMY CAME FROM TO ATTACK YOU, BUT THIS HAS BEEN SHIFTING FOR THE LAST TWO WEEKS, AS YOU SAY, BECAUSE THE WORD HAS BEEN SHOCKED BY THE IMAGES.

THERE HAVE BEEN REPERCUSSIONS.

THERE HAS BEEN THE TALK ABOUT STARVATION IN GAZA AND THIS IS NOT SOMETHING YOU CAN FAKE.

ISRAELIS HEARD THAT.

WE HEARD ALSO THE DECLARATION OF FRENCH PRESIDENT AND OTHER COUNTRIES THAT THEY WILL OR MY RECOGNIZE IN-STATE AND YOU HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO THE ISRAELI PUBLIC WHY THIS DIPLOMATIC SHIFT IN THE WORLD TOWARDS ISRAEL.

IT MADE TALK POSSIBLE AND THE DISCUSSION CAME TO THE TABLE ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN GAZA.

THE PROGRAMS WERE SHOWING THE AGAIN, IT'S NOT THAT IT'S NOT TALKED ABOUT OR THAT GUYS ARE DYING DURING THE WAR, BUT I JUST THINK PICTURES ARE LACKING, BUT ALSO THE CAPACITY OF FEELING THE PAIN OF THE OTHER PEOPLE.

YOU CAN ALSO ASK, IS IT FAIR TO ASK SO MUCH HURTING ITSELF TO FEEL THE PAIN OF ANOTHER PEOPLE THAT IS THE PLACE WHERE ENEMY CAME FROM --CAME OUT AND ATTACKED ON OCTOBER 7th.

THE SITUATION IS COMPLEX AND TO THAT, SOMETHING THAT YOU ARE REALLY ACTIVE TOWARDS TO TRY TO GET THE POSSIBILITY FOR JOURNALISTS TO ENTER GAZA.

YOU KNOW AND YOU TALK ABOUT IT A LOT ON THE SHOW.

JOURNALISTS ARE NOT ALLOWED TO ENTER GAZA.

AND JOURNALISTS ON THE GROUND CAN DO THE WORK AND PUT IT OUT AND THIS IS ALSO AFFECTING THE COVERAGE OF GAZA.

>> EMMANUELLE, WE WOULD LIKE TO CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION AND WE WILL AT ANOTHER TIME WHEN DEVELOPMENTS WEREN'T AND THEY DO ALL THE TIME, BUT THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

OF COURSE, A LOT OF THE FORMER ISRAELI MILITARY AND SECURITY AND INTELLIGENCE OFFICIALS WARNING ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON AND AGAINST FULL-SCALE OCCUPATION OF GAZA.

WE'LL HAVE YOU BACK.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, EMMANUELLE.

>>> NEXT, WE RETURN TO THE WEEK WHERE THE WORLD WAS COMPLETELY TRANSFORMED.

THE NUCLEAR PERILS WE FACE TODAY.

JUST LAST WEEK, RUSSIA AGAIN PROMPTING PRESIDENT TRUMP TO SAY THAT HE IS REPOSITIONING TWO NUCLEAR SUBMARINES.

THIS VERY REAL DANGER AS LONG PLOT TWIST IN THE FILMS OF DIRECTOR JAMES CAMERON FROM AVATAR TO THE TERMINATOR FRANCHISE.

HE HAS BROUGHT THESE ISSUES TO THE FOREFRONT OF POPULAR CULTURE.

NOW, HE'S ANNOUNCING THE NEXT PRODUCT, AND ADAPTATION OF THE NEW BOOK, GHOSTS OF HIROSHIMA, WHICH DESCRIBES THE HORRIFYING REALITY OF WHAT THE BOMB STATED, BUT ALSO FOLLOWING THE STORY OF A SURVIVOR OF BOTH BLASTS.

I SPOKE TO CAMERON AND NUCLEAR PHYSICIST WHO WAS SECRETARY OF ENERGY UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA AND A KEY NEGOTIATOR DURING THE IRAN NUCLEAR AGREEMENT.

THE CONVERSATION WAS HOSTED BY THE NUCLEAR THREAT INITIATIVE, WHICH NOW LEADS.

GENTLEMEN, WELCOME TO YOU BOTH AND LET ME FIRST ASK YOU, JAMES CAMERON.

WHAT MADE YOU SO INTERESTED IN PREOCCUPIED BY THIS ISSUE PARTICULARLY BY HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI?

>> I WAS QUITE YOUNG AND THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN EIGHT YEARS OLD DURING THE CUMIN CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS.

I WAS BECOMING AWARE OF THE FACT THAT THE WORLD WAS NOT THIS SAFE NEST I THOUGHT IT WAS AND THERE WERE THESE TRULY EXISTENTIAL THREATS OUT THERE AND I REMEMBER MY FATHER BRINGING HOME PAMPHLETS THAT SHOWED YOU HOW TO PILE SANDBAGS UP TO CREATE A BOMB SHELTER OR FOLLOW SHELTER TO THE BASEMENT AND WITH THIS A GROWING DISMAY THAT THIS WAS THE TRUE NATURE OF THE WORLD CUT TO OVER 20 YEARS LATER AND MY FIRST FILM OUT OF THE GATE AS A FILMMAKER WAS THE TERMINATOR, WHICH DEALT WITH THIS IDEA OF NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST AND FUTURE.

FOR FUN, AND THROW IN ARTIFICIAL GENERAL INTELLIGENCE AND THAT STORY, AS WELL.

HERE WE ARE IN THE WORLD WHERE THE SCIENCE FICTION TEAMS ARE ACTUALLY COMING TRUE.

>> ADAPTING THE BOOK GHOSTS OF HIROSHIMA, IT WOULD BE FIRST NON-AVATAR FEATURE SINCE WHAT DREW YOU TO THAT BOOK?

WHAT WERE THE STORIES IN THE BOOK?

WHAT ABOUT CHARLES DREW YOU TO IT?

>> LET A SET THE TABLE FOR THIS BUT I HAVE KNOWN HIM FOR A LONG TIME AND HE WAS ONE OF OUR CONSULTANTS ON TITANIC.

HE HAS TALKED ABOUT THE BOOK FOR AGES AND AGES AND SENT ME EARLY VERSIONS OF IT AND I READ IT WITH INTEREST, GREAT INTEREST A NUMBER OF TIMES NOW WHAT COMPELS ME AND THE HUMAN HOOK FOR UNDERSTANDING THIS TRAGEDY IS TO FOLLOW A HANDFUL AND SPECIFICALLY TWO WILL BE FEATURED ON SURVIVORS THAT NOT ONLY SURVIVED THE BLAST, BUT WENT TO NAGASAKI AND THREE DAYS LATER WERE HIT AGAIN.

PEOPLE WERE FRANKLY DUMBFOUNDED THAT THEY COULDN'T SURVIVE BOTH OF THESE THINGS AND YAMAGUCHI IN THE LATTER PART OF HIS LIFE ACTUALLY TRAVELED THE WORLD MAKING AND HE WAS VERY PRACTICAL MAN AND A SHIPBUILDING ENGINEER AND HE WASN'T A PUBLIC SPEAKER OR PARTICULARLY IMAGINATIVE PERSON AND HE DID BECOME AN ARTIST, AS WELL.

I HAVE BEEN THE RECIPIENT OF THE IMPACT OF A NUCLEAR WEAPON TWICE.

I CAN FORGIVE THAT AND AS A RESULT I BELIEVE YOU AND EVERYONE IN THE AUDIENCE THAT YOU CAN FORGIVE ANYTHING.

YOU CAN FORGIVE ANYTHING.

WHAT HAPPENS, ALL OF THESE CONFLICTS LEAD TO WAR AND EVERYBODY FEELS THAT THEY ARE REACTING TO SOMETHING THAT WENT BEFORE AND THEY REACT TO THAT, THEN THERE IS A REACTION FROM OTHER THINGS THAT GO INTO A FEEDBACK LOOP THAT ULTIMATELY LEADS TO CONFLICT THAT AFTER- THE-FACT, WE QUESTION WHY IT EVEN HAPPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE.

IN THAT MOMENT, IT MADE SENSE.

WE HAD TO GET PAST THAT, BECAUSE THERE NEVER BE A MOMENT WHERE USING A NUCLEAR WEAPON MAKES SENSE.

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

YOU ASKED ME ABOUT THIS FILM, I FRANKLY CAN'T TELL YOU EXACTLY THE DETAILS OF HOW I CAN DO IT.

NOT BECAUSE I'M HEADING ANYTHING, BUT BECAUSE I'M IN THE PROCESS OF STARTING OFF ON THE SCRIPT, BUT I KNOW A FEW THINGS.

ONE, I WANT TO FOLLOW THE DOUBLE BOMB SURVIVORS, BECAUSE THERE IS A TRUE HUMAN POIGNANCY TO THE STORIES THAT I THINK WILL BE POWERFUL FOR PEOPLE.

I WANT TO AVOID ANY SORT OF GEOPOLITICAL RAMIFICATIONS.

IT'LL JUST BE THE FACT OF WHAT IT IS TO EXPERIENCE A NUCLEAR WEAPON ON THE GROUND.

IT HAS ONLY HAPPENED TWICE IN HUMAN HISTORY AGAINST HUMAN TARGETS AND THE PEOPLE THAT SURVIVED THAT ARE THE MOST PRECIOUS WITNESSES FOR THE MOST HORRIFIC THING THAT I CAN IMAGINE.

I CAN IMAGINE A LOT I HAVE A GOOD IMAGINATION.

I CAN HAVE A VERY HARD TIME WRAPPING UP MY MIND AROUND WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE IF THESE WEAPONS WERE UNLEASHED AGAINST US NOW.

>> YOU ARE TRYING TO CHANGE PEOPLE'S PERSPECTIVES AND GET THEM SERIOUS ABOUT THIS.

DO YOU THINK IT'S HARD WORK OR THAT PEOPLE HAVE FORGOTTEN THE IDEA OF WHAT THESE TERRIBLE BOMBS DID AND COULD DO AGAIN?

>> WELL, CLEARLY AT THE END OF THE COLD WAR AND NOW MORE THAN 25 YEARS AGO WAS A TIME AT WHICH MANY PEOPLE, PERHAPS INCLUDING MYSELF, INCORRECTLY EXHALED AS THOUGH THE RISK WAS PASSED US.

NOW WOULD WE HAVE SEEN IS UNFORTUNATELY THAT THE RISK IS GOING BACK UP AND THE NUMBER OF WEAPONS IS GOING BACK UP.

THERE REMAINS A FALSE NARRATIVE THAT THE POSITION OF THESE SAFER WHEN THEY ARE NOT.

THAT IS THE NARRATIVE.

LOOKING AT THE SCALE OF THOSE WEAPONS VERSUS CONVENTIONAL WEAPONS, IN THE U.S. WE OFTEN THINK OF THE TERRIBLE BOMB IN THE 90s IN OKLAHOMA CITY.

MORE RECENTLY, WE HAVE SEEN THE RESULTS OF THE SO-CALLED BUNKER BUSTERS USED IN IRAN ATTACKS A FEW WEEKS AGO, A MONTH AGO.

IN ALL OF THOSE CASES, THOSE WEAPONS HAVE EXPLOSIVE POWER OF ABOUT TWO TONS OF TNT EQUIVALENT.

THE JAPANESE BOMBS, WE ARE TALKING 15,000 OR 20,000 TONS.

NOW, A FACTOR OF 100 BEYOND THAT.

THAT LET IN FACT HARRY TRUMAN THE DECISION TO DROP THOSE BOMBS IN JAPAN.

LIKE JAMES, I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE ANY POLITICAL POSITION ON THE WISDOM OR NOT OF THAT, BUT SEVERAL YEARS LATER, HARRY TRUMAN SAID QUITE CORRECTLY, THESE NUCLEAR WEAPONS ARE NOT MILITARY WEAPONS.

THEY ARE DROPPED ON A CITY AND INDISCRIMINATELY KILLED COMBATANTS, NONCOMBATANTS, WOMEN, CHILDREN ET CETERA.

THEY SHOULD NOT BE THOUGHT OF AS MILITARY WEAPONS, BUT AS WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, INDISCRIMINATE MASS DESTRUCTION WHEN IT IS CERTAINLY DROPPED IN AN URBAN CENTER.

I THINK THAT QUESTION OF CONTEXT AND SCALE IS AN IMPORTANT ONE TO KEEP IN MIND.

AGAIN, THE VIVIDNESS OF FILM, BIG-SCREEN, SMALL SCREEN, OTHER CULTURAL AVENUES I THINK CAN BE VERY POWERFUL IN BRINGING THAT HOME AT A HUMAN LEVEL.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT SURVIVORS, SO I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT SURVIVORS.

IT IS INCREDIBLE TO THINK THAT THERE WERE SURVIVORS OF TWO BOMBS.

HOW DID THEY GET FROM HIROSHIMA TO NAGASAKI ANYWAY AND WHY?

SECONDLY, WHAT ABOUT THE MANY VISIT IN THE HOSPITAL?

ALSO IS REVEREND I THINK YOU MADE A PLEDGE TO HIM.

>> THAT IS TRUE.

I WILL DO YAMAGUCHI SECOND.

HE IS THE ONE I MET IN PERSON AND I BELIEVE HE PASSED A BATON OF SACRED DUTY TO ME.

THERE IS ANOTHER YOUNG MAN THAT I WANT TO TELL THE STORY TO HIM WAS A BIT AWAY FROM THE HYPO CENTER OR SORT OF GROUND ZERO WHEN THE BOMB WENT OFF AND HE WAS INJURED.

HE FOUGHT HIS WAY BACK INTO A TOTAL FIRESTORM IN THE CITY WAS FLATTENED AND ON FIRE.

HE TRIED TO GET BACK TO HIS HOME WHERE HIS YOUNG BRIDE WHO HAD ONLY BEEN MARRIED A FEW MONTHS WAS AND HE WAS ALMOST HOUSE HAD BEEN AND SPENT TWO DAYS DIGGING THROUGH THE RUBBLE TO CONFIRM THAT SHE HAD BEEN HOME WHEN THE WEAPON WENT OFF AND STILL HAD NO IDEA WHAT WAS HAPPENING AND DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT A NUCLEAR BOMB.

HE WAS JUST REACTING TO WHAT HAPPENED.

HE FOUND HER BONES STILL HOT AND BURNED.

HE FOUND A BOWL GIVEN TO THEM BY HER PARENTS AS A WEDDING GIFT.

HE COVERED IT UP WITH A TOWEL OR A SHIRT AND GOT ON THE TRAIN TO TAKE IT TO HER PARENTS IN NAGASAKI.

HE GOT THERE JUST IN TIME TO EXPLAIN TO THEM WHAT HAD HAPPENED AND, THEN THERE WAS A SECOND FLASH.

WHAT MUST HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH THAT YOUNG MAN'S MIND?

I CANNOT EVEN CONCEIVE.

THIS FILM SCARES ME.

I FEAR MAKING THIS FILM AND I FEAR THE IMAGES THAT I'M GOING TO HAVE TO CREATE TO BE TRUTHFUL AND HONEST.

I TALKED TO STEVEN SPIELBERG ABOUT THIS AND WHEN HE WAS MAKING SAVING PRIVATE RYAN AND THAT OPENS WITH ABOUT A 25 MINUTE SEQUENCE OF THE U.S.

FORCES STORMING THE BEACH, OMAHA BEACH.

HE SAID, I WANTED TO USE EVERY CINEMATIC TRICK I COULD TO MAKE IT AS INTENSE AS POSSIBLE, BECAUSE I KNEW I WOULD FAIL TO EVEN COME CLOSE TO WHAT IT WAS REALLY LIKE FOR THOSE MEN ON THAT BEACH.

I THINK, THAT'S A CLUE FOR HOW TO DO THIS.

MAKE THE FILM HARD TO WATCH, BUT I MADE THIS PLEDGE TO THE DOUBLE BOMB SURVIVOR, YAMAGUCHI.

HE WAS DYING OF CANCER.

HE TOLD ME HIS STORY AND HE KNEW WHY I WAS THERE TO EXPLORE MAKING THIS FILM.

HE TOOK MY HANDS AND SAID, I'M DONE.

I NOW PASS THIS TO YOU.

IT'S A TERRIBLE BURDEN IN A SENSE, BUT IT'S A FILM THAT I HAVE TO MAKE AND I DON'T KNOW IF I'M WORTHY, BUT NOBODY ELSE IS DOING IT, SO I'M GOING TO DO IT.

IS THAT PRINCIPLE THAT YOU HAVE TO STAND UP AND HAVE TO TAKE ACTION ON THE BEHALF OF OTHERS.

IT IS FOR ALL OF US.

>> YOU SAID HOW NOBODY IS DOING IT AND I HAVE TO DO IT.

IS THAT COMMENTARY A LITTLE BIT --I'M NOT TRYING TO GET YOU INTO A FIGHT WITH OPPENHEIMER, BUT THEY DIDN'T DO IT AND THEY DID IT FROM THE OTHER SIDE.

THE CREATOR OF THE ATOMIC BOMB, MANHATTAN PROJECT AND FORENSIC LOOK AT THAT SIDE, BUT STOPPED SHORT OF THE ACTUAL DESTINATION.

>> I HAVEN'T TALKED TO CHRIS ABOUT THIS AND I READ WHAT HE SAID ABOUT IT.

WE ARE FRIENDS AND I'M NOT GOING TO CRITICIZE ANOTHER FILMMAKERS FILM.

OPPENHEIMER WAS A POWERFUL FILM FOR HIM AND IF I HAVE TO GUESS, HE PROBABLY SAID TO HIMSELF, THAT'S ANOTHER FILM.

I CAN'T DO IT JUSTICE WITH JUST ONE SCENE.

I TRIED ON TERMINATOR TWO JUDGMENT DAY.

MY FILM IN 1991 AND I TRIED TO SHOW WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE FROM A MULTI-MEGATON WEAPON INTO LOS ANGELES.

IT'S POSSIBLE, BUT THAT WAS JUST A GLIMPSE THROUGH A KEYHOLE INTO A NIGHTMARE.

>> SECRETARY, YOU HELPED NEGOTIATE AFTER THIS BOMBING BY ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES.

SOME EXPERTS SAY THAT IT NEVER MADE THE MESSAGE AND AND NOW WE MIGHT.

WE HAVE NO DETERRENCE OTHERWISE.

TALK TO US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW PARADOXICALLY IF WE COULD SEE A WORLD WITH MORE NUCLEAR BECAUSE OF THESE KINDS OF SITUATIONS.

>> THERE IS CERTAINLY A RISK OF THAT, BUT I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO TAKE OR POINT OUT IN SOME SENSE THE OPPOSITE AND CROSSED THE RED LINE BY THREATENING USE OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS AGAINST A NONNUCLEAR WEAPON STATE, BUT I WOULD POINT OUT THAT IT DIDN'T PROTECT THEM FROM BEING ATTACKED BY UKRAINE INSIDE RUSSIA.

THE DRONE ATTACKS, ET CETERA.

IN THE IRAN SITUATION AND AGAIN I'M NOT GOING TO CAST JUDGMENT HERE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE MILITARY STRIKES SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED, HOWEVER I WOULD NOTE THAT IRAN HAD ALSO CROSSED A REDLINE.

IT IS NOT STATED OFTEN ENOUGH THAT THEY HAD 400 KILOGRAMS MORE THAN 400 KILOGRAMS OF URANIUM ENRICHED TO MORE THAN 60% OR 60%.

THE FOCUS HAS ALWAYS BEEN, THAT'S NOT WEAPONS GRADE IS DEFINED AS 90% ENRICHMENT.

DOESN'T MATTER WHAT THAT MEANS IN DETAIL, BUT IT'S SLIGHTLY SHORT OF IT.

WHAT HAS NOT BEEN SAID IS THAT 60% URANIUM IS JUST AS USABLE IN A NUCLEAR EXPLOSIVE, JUST NOT QUITE AS EFFICIENT BREAD WHETHER YOU ARE IN AN AMBIGUOUS SITUATION LIKE IRAN, I THINK IT IS QUESTIONABLE TO ARGUE THAT NUCLEAR WEAPONS HAD PROVIDED SAFETY AND SECURITY IN THOSE SITUATIONS.

THAT IS PART OF THE NARRATIVE, INDIA AND PAKISTAN HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND IT DIDN'T PREVENT THEM FROM GETTING INTO A NASTY, SHALL WE SAY, MILITARY EXCHANGE.

THE NARRATIVE HAS TO BE THAT WE FOR OURSELVES, CHILDREN, GRANDCHILDREN, FOR OURSELVES AND OTHERS ON THIS PLANET AND THAT WORLD WE BELIEVE WILL BE A WORLD WHERE NUCLEAR RISKS ARE TAKEN OFF THE TABLE.

IT WILL NOT TAKE ALL RISKS OFF THE TABLE, ALL SECURITY RISKS, BUT IT WILL TAKE THIS PARTICULAR RISK, WHICH HAS THE CONSEQUENCES WE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING.

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU, LET ME JUST ASK YOU THIS, BECAUSE IT IS WORRYING PRETTY JD VANCE RECENTLY CALLED THE MILITARY VIOLENCE BETWEEN THE NUCLEAR POWERS INDIA AND TEXT" AND THE MENTALLY NONE OF OUR BUSINESS.

APPARENTLY, TRUMP DIDN'T AGREE WITH HIM, THANK GOODNESS.

CALLED THEM AND TOLD THEM TO STOP THIS.

CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT KIND OF DIPLOMACY SHOULD BE THE PROPER DIPLOMACY RIGHT NOW?

PARTICULARLY IN TERMS OF THE WHICH IS THE CUBAN MISSILE CRISIS.

>> THE CONCERN THAT I HAVE ABOUT OUR RECENT EXCHANGE BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP IS THE FOLLOWING.

I THINK WE NEED TO CONNECT SOME DOTS TO UNDERSTAND THE RISK LEVEL.

NOW, EX-PRESIDENT MADE SOME PRETTY UNFORTUNATE STATEMENTS.

FRANKLY, I DON'T FAULT PRESIDENT TRUMP FOR HAVING.

I'M NOT SURE THE ONE ABOUT REPOSITIONING NUCLEAR SUBMARINES WAS THE BEST CHOICE IN A TIME OF TENSION.

WE RUN THE RISK THAT SUPPOSEDLY HAVE ANOTHER ACCIDENT.

I REMIND YOU THAT SINCE THE COLD WAR ENDED AND I WON'T EVEN GO BACK BEFORE THAT TIME, BUT SINCE THE END OF THE COLD WAR, WE HAVE ALREADY HAD INCIDENTS IN THE U.S. AND RUSSIA OF MYSTIC AND DATA, PROCESSES AND ONE OF THE EVENTS I THINK WAS IN 1995, RUSSIA MISINTERPRETED THE LAUNCHING OF SCIENTIFIC ROCKET IN SCANDINAVIA AS AN INCOMING MISSILE FROM THE U.S.

SUPPOSE THAT IS INTERPRETATION OF DATA HAPPENED WITH TENSIONS HIGH AND WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP HAVING SAID, WE WILL HAVE SUBMARINES ROUGHLY SPEAKING JUST OFF YOUR COAST.

THAT COULD LEAD IN A VERY SHORT DECISION TIME, FIVE MINUTES, TO A VERY UNFORTUNATE ESKIMO TORY BIG MISTAKE.

THAT IS WHAT WORRIES ME THE STATEMENTS THAT WERE MADE BY PRESIDENT TRUMP, IF THE ROLES OF THE GAME ARE BEING FOLLOWED, IT'S NOT A MAJOR ELEVATION RISK.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE ROLES ARE NOT BEING FOLLOWED?

WHEN PEOPLE MAKE BIG MISTAKES THIS WASN'T DATA, WE HAD A MISTAKEN CHAIN OF COMMAND WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS LEFT UNGUARDED IN THE U.S. WE HAD A NUCLEAR BOMB DROPPED ACCIDENTALLY BY THE UNITED STATES DOMESTICALLY.

WE HAD A TRAINING TAPE IN THE U.S. AND LEFT IN THE WRONG COMPUTER.

WE HAVE HAD ALL KINDS OF THINGS.

IF YOU CREATE THIS TENSE RELATIONSHIP AND ONE OF THESE ACCIDENTS OCCURS, THEN YOU MAY GET THE WRONG OUTCOME.

>> YOU KNOW WHAT?

YOU ARE RIGHT.

THE HUMAN FACTOR IS SO IMPORTANT.

JAMES CAMERON, I WANT TO ASK ABOUT CULTURE AND REALITY.

THE BOOK, GHOST OF HIROSHIMA, SCI-FI AND REALITY.

WELLS INSPIRED THE PHYSICIST TO START THE MANHATTAN PROJECT, FOR INSTANCE.

THERE WAS AN OBSCURE NOVEL THAT PREDICTED THE EVENTS OF THE TITANIC.

OBVIOUSLY, YOUR FILM.

APPARENTLY IN 1908, A SHORT STORY BETWEEN JAPAN AND AMERICA WAS BASED AROUND THE WEAPON THAT USED RADIATION.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN FICTION AND REALITY?

SCI-FI AND REALITY.

>> >> WE ARE BORN CURIOUS AND MANY PEOPLE FOLLOW THE CURIOSITY INTO THE SCIENCES AND I KNOW I HAVE TALKED TO A LOT OF SCIENTISTS, PHYSICISTS, ASTRONOMERS AND SOMEONE IF THEY WERE ATTRACTED TO THE SCIENCES DUE TO THE EARLY FLIGHTS OF FANTASY AND READING SCIENCE FICTION.

OBVIOUSLY, THE TERMINATOR TERMINATOR TWO JUDGMENT DAY WITH NUCLEAR WAR SUPER INTELLIGENCE AND SO ON.

THOSE WERE SCIENTISTS FICTION WORKS FOR I HAVE A HARD TIME WRITING SCIENCE FICTION.

I'M TASKED WITH WRITING A NEW TERMINATOR STORY AND I HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO START ON THAT, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY THAT WON'T BE IN OVERTAKEN REAL EVENTS.

WE ARE LIVING IN A SCIENCE- FICTION AGE RIGHT NOW.

THE ONLY WAY OUT IS THROUGH BY USING INTELLIGENCE AND OUR CURIOSITY AND BY USING OUR COMMAND OF TECHNOLOGY.

ALSO, UNDERSTANDING THE PROBABILITIES THAT WE FACE.

>> JAMES CAMERON, THANK YOU.

SECRETARY, THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU, AS WELL.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> THE APPARENT POLITICIZATION OF IMMIGRATION COURTS IS SETTING UP ALARM BELLS WITH DOZENS OF JUDGES FIRED UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SECOND TERM.

URGENT QUESTIONS ABOUT JUDICIAL PROCESS AND IMMIGRATION JUDGE GEORGE AND JENNIFER PATENT JOINED MICHELLE MARTIN TO SPEAK OUT ABOUT WHAT IT'S LIKE TO SUDDENLY DISMISS AND WHAT ACTION THEY ARE TAKING.

>> JENNIFER AND GEORGE, THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THE REASON WE ARE SPEAKING TO YOU IS THAT MORE THAN 100 IMMIGRATION JUDGES IN THE LAST SEVERAL MONTHS HAVE BEEN FIRED, RESIGNED OR RESIGNED UNDER THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION OFTEN WITHOUT ANY PUBLIC EXPLANATION AND YOU ARE TWO OF THEM.

I'M GOING TO START WITH YOU, JENNIFER.

YOU SERVED AS AN IMMIGRATION JUDGE IN CHICAGO AND BECAME A SUPERVISING JUDGE.

WHAT DID YOUR ROLL INVOLVE?

>> AS IN AC IJ BY CHICAGO CART, AND INCLUDING APPLICATIONS FOR ASYLUM WHERE SOMEONE HEARS RETURN TO HOME COUNTRY BECAUSE OF WHAT HAPPENED OR MIGHT HAVE BEEN.

FAMILY BASED APPLICATION ON A DAILY BASIS WILL BE ASSIGNED DIFFERENT KINDS OF CASES TO HEAR AND ADJUDICATE WITHIN THE CONFINES PROVIDED BY THE IMMIGRATION LAWS AND AUTHORITIES.

>> AS I UNDERSTAND IT A COUPLE OF DECADES IN PRIVATE IMMIGRATION LAW BEFORE YOU ACCEPT A JUDGE SHIP IN MASSACHUSETTS.

CAN YOU TELL ME AS QUICKLY AS YOU CAN, WHY WERE YOU AT THE TO THE WORK?

>> FOR 20 YEARS BEFORE I BECAME A JUDGE AND I BECAME --HAD MY OWN LAW FIRM.

PRIOR TO THAT AND IMPORT EXPORT AND ALSO-RAN LAW SCHOOL FOR 20 YEARS.

I BROUGHT A LOT OF EXPERIENCE TO THE BENCH.

WE LEGAL EXPERIENCE GAVE ME OPPORTUNITY TO HIT THE GROUND 20 YEARS PRIOR TO BEING A JUDGE, AND EMPATHIZED WITH THE STORIES OF IMMIGRANTS AND I HAD COMPLETE KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT THEY WERE GOING THROUGH THAT GAVE ME EMPATHY THAT IS NOT NORMALLY THERE.

OF COURSE, THE EXPENSE AHEAD WITH THE U.S. CIS AGENCY, IMMIGRATION COURTS, FEDERAL COURTS GAVE ME A GOOD BACKGROUND BEFORE I BECAME A JUDGE.

I BASICALLY WANTED TO BECOME A JUDGE, BECAUSE I REALLY WANTED TO HELP DEAL WITH THE BACKLOG.

WHEN I WAS ASKED BY MY INTERVIEWERS, WHY DO YOU WANT TO BECOME A JUDGE?

I'M HERE TO HELP YOU AND I WILL GIVE YOU MY EXPERIENCE AND I WANT TO SERVE, SO THAT'S HOW I GOT TO BE A JUDGE.

>> MY RECOLLECTION IS THAT YOU ARE STILL SERVING ON THE BENCH THIS YEAR AND WHAT YOU NOTICED THAT OTHER JUDGES AROUND YOU WERE STARTING TO LOSE THEIR JOBS.

CAN YOU REMIND US, WHAT WAS IT LIKE AND WHAT DO YOU SEE?

>> IT'S A DARK CLOUD.

THE TONE OF THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF IMMIGRATION WAS DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE THAT BEGAN TO CHANGE AND YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER RIGHT AFTER INAUGURATION WITHIN HOURS ARE COMPLETE LEADERSHIP WAS FIRED AND OUR ACTING DIRECTOR WAS FIRED AND THE CHIEF IMMIGRATION JUDGE WAS FIRED.

THE GENERAL COUNSEL WAS FIRED AND ANOTHER LEADERSHIP WAS FIRED.

WE EXPECT THERE IS GOING TO BE CHANGES FROM ADMINISTRATION TO ADMINISTRATION, BUT IT HAPPENED SO QUICKLY THAT WE SAW CHANGE, BUT WITHIN WEEKS OF THAT, WE HAD OUR FIRST MASS FIRING OF IMMIGRATION JUDGES AROUND FEBRUARY 13.

AROUND 13 JUDGES WERE FIRED AT THE SAME TIME NATIONWIDE AND IT'S A HUGE RED FLAG FOR THOSE OF US PRESENTING ON THE BENCH.

IT WAS THE OPENING GAMBIT AND NOT THE END, BUT IT WAS THE BEGINNING.

WE HAD ANOTHER MASS FIRING OF ABOUT EIGHT JUDGES AND THREE WERE IN MY COURT IN AFTER THAT FIRING, THE JUDGE THAT WAS RETAINED WAS FORMERLY WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY.

AFTER THAT EVENT, MORALE PLUMMETED AT IMMIGRATION COURTS.

WE SAW MASS FIRINGS AND PEOPLE STARTED TO RESIGN.

AT THIS POINT, IMMIGRATION JUDGES STARTED TO RESIGN OR TOOK EARLY RETIREMENT AND WE PROBABLY LOST ANOTHER FOUR JUDGES BECAUSE OF THAT.

REALLY LOW SPOT WAS WHEN A NAVY VETERAN, 20 YEAR NAVY VETERAN WHO WAS A JUDGE WAS FIRED.

HE WAS WITH ME IN THERE EVERY DAY AND WAS A GREAT JUDGE.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW THEY CAN FIRE A LOYAL VETERAN AFTER 20 YEARS.

>> WHEN WERE FIRED, WHAT DID THEY SAY AND HOW DID IT HAPPEN?

>> IT CAME BY EMAIL ON FRIDAY AFTERNOON AROUND 3:30.

TO SUMMARIZE WHAT IT SAID IT WAS BASICALLY THREE OR FOUR SENTENCES AND IT SAID, PURSUANT TO ARTICLE TWO OF THE CONSTITUTION, THE ATTORNEY YOUR PROBATIONARY STATUS.

YOUR TERM OF EMPLOYMENT WILL END ON A CERTAIN DATE.

PLEASE RETURN YOUR EQUIPMENT AT THE END OF THE DAY AND THAT WAS IT AND IT WAS SIGNED BY DIRECTOR OF THE OIR NOTHING ELSE.

>> YOU SERVED LONGER, SO YOU HAVE EXPERIENCED A CHANGE OF MINISTRATIONS BEFORE.

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS?

>> NEVER.

I WAS APPOINTED IN 2016 UNDER PRESIDENT OBAMA AND THEY WORKED UNDER THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND ANY AND MENTORING ADMINISTRATION CHANGE, THERE IS SOME THING THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN THAT WILL BRING A DIFFERENCE AND THERE WILL BE TENSION AND NEW PRIORITIES COMING IN.

WHILE WE KNEW THERE WOULD BE SOME CHANGES, NO ONE BELIEVED THAT IT WOULD COME SUCH BRITTLENESS OR SUCH IMPACT ON THE LEADERSHIP IN OUR COURTS AND STARTING WITHIN HOURS OF THE INAUGURATION AND TRICKLE DOWN.

>> WHAT ABOUT YOU?

DID YOU EVER GET AN EXPLANATION?

>> I'M A LITTLE DIFFERENT.

AS YOU NOTED ALMOST NINE YEARS IN, I WAS A NON-POLITICAL APPOINTEE AND I HAD EXCELLENT PERFORMANCE REVIEWS AND NO DISCIPLINARY ACTION.

I RECEIVED AN EMAIL WHILE ON VACATION.

THREE SENTENCES CITING ARTICLE TWO AND NOTING THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL DECIDED TO TERMINATE ME AND EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY.

NO CAUSE, EXPLANATION OR REASON.

>> DID YOU NOTICE ANY PATTERN TO THE JUDGES THAT WERE BEING DISMISSED?

YOU NEVER GOT ANY EXPLANATION OTHER THAN THE ATTORNEY GENERAL EXERCISING HER AUTHORITY UNDER THE CONSTITUTION AND PRESUMABLY THE OTHER JUDGES RECEIVED THE SAME NOTICE.

DID YOU NOTICE ANY PATTERN, WHETHER IT'S BEEN CONFIRMED OR NOT?

>> THERE HAVE BEEN PATTERNS MOST NOTABLY IN THE CLASS THAT WAS JULY 2023 DUE TO BEING RENEWED AND EXTENDED IN JULY 2025.

MOST OF THE INDIVIDUAL JUDGES WITH BACKGROUNDS IN PRIVATE PRACTICE ARE SEEMINGLY HAD NAMES THAT MIGHT INDICATE A DIFFERENT ETHNICITY OR HERITAGE AND DEFINITELY THE PROSECUTOR, SOME FORMER GOVERNMENT SERVICE AND THOSE ARE STILL WORKING.

OF THE 30+ JUDGES IN THE CLASS, I BELIEVE HALF OF THEM WERE DISMISSED AND NOT EXTENDED.

>> NEITHER OF YOU DISPUTE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL THAT HAS THE AUTHORITY TO MAKE THESE FIRINGS IF SHE SO CHOOSES.

GO AHEAD.

TELL ME.

>> I WILL DISPUTE THAT, BECAUSE I HAD A PERMANENT POSITION AND I WAS A NONPOLITICAL AND I HAVE RIGHTS AND CIVIL SERVICE REFORM I AM APPEALING MY TERMINATION AND I DO NOT FEEL THAT ARTICLE TO AUTHORITY IS VALID FOR MY DETERMINATION.

>> WHAT ABOUT YOU?

ARE YOU ALSO?

>> I WILL BE CONTESTING, BECAUSE THE TERMINATION AND FIRING WAS DONE FOR OUR JOB PERFORMANCE AND THERE CERTAINLY UNDERTONES WITH POLITICAL BIAS, WHICH WE DON'T HAVE.

THAT IS A VIOLATION OF OUR AGREEMENT UNDER OUR CONTRACT WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE.

YOU DO NOT FIRE JUDGES BECAUSE OF A POLITICAL OPINION.

DON'T DO THAT AND THAT IS APPEALABLE.

>> WE ACTUALLY ASKED THE ADMINISTRATION ABOUT THIS AND ASKED DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE FOR COMMENT ON BOTH DISMISSALS AND WHETHER THE ACTIONS REFLECT A BROADER SHIFT IN POLICY.

NONE HAS BEEN CITED.

THE APARTMENT DECLINED TO COMMENT, BUT IN OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES FOR EXAMPLE CAROLINE WHO IS NOW WHITE HOUSE SPOKESPERSON SAID LIBERAL ACTIVIST JUDGES ARE UNDERMINING POLICY AND NATIONAL SECURITY AND WENT ON TO ONE JUDGES RULING ON DEPORTATIONS TRULY DESPICABLE.

I'M WONDERING HOW YOU ARE HEARING THAT.

>> I WAS A NONPOLITICAL POINT TO JUDGE.

I SERVED AND WAS UNDER THE MISSION STATEMENT OF THE AGENCY AND FAIRLY UNIFORMLY ADJUDICATED THE CASES BEFORE ME AND I HAVE NO RECORD OF DISCIPLINE AND EXCELLENT PERFORMANCE REVIEWS AND I'M DOING A NONPARTISAN JOB AND I'M LOOKING AT THE CASE IN FRONT OF ME AND THE FACTS AND LAW.

I DIDN'T READ POLITICS INTO MY OFFICE AT ALL AND I DIDN'T BECAUSE THAT WASN'T MY JOB.

IT WAS TO ADJUDICATE THE CASES AND I DID THOUSANDS OF THOSE.

THOUSANDS.

>> WHAT ABOUT YOU?

ABOUT YOU?

>> CAME FROM PRACTICE THAT SOMEHOW I HAVE LIBERAL BIAS AND I DID PRO BONO WORK LOOKING FOR NONPROFITS AND THAT PRIOR WORK IS GOING TO MAKE ME LOWER -- MORE LIBERAL AND APPLYING FOR GRANT RELIEF.

WHAT IS CRYSTAL CLEAR THROUGHOUT THIS IS THAT SHE HAS NOT MENTIONED THE PRODUCTIVITY OR TARGETS WE MET AND THE EFFICIENCY WAS BROUGHT TO THE COURT.

NONE OF THAT WAS MEASURED.

IN THE PAST, THAT WAS MEASURED.

HOW WELL WAS THE JUDGE PERFORMING AND HOW IS THE TEMPERAMENT ON THE COURT?

HOW MANY CASES DID WE CLOSE?

HOW MANY MOTIONS DID WE ROLL- ON?

THESE ARE THE BREAD AND BUTTER PRODUCTIVITY ISSUES THAT WERE TYPICALLY REVIEWED BY OUR ASSISTANT CHIEF IMMIGRATION JUDGE AND ALL OF THAT HAS BEEN TOSSED AND THE ONLY THING DRIVING BASED UPON MY PERCEPTION OF WHAT'S DRIVING THESE TERMINATIONS IS AN IMPLIED POLITICAL BIAS.

THEY ARE MAKING IMPLIED POLITICAL BIAS AND ARBITRARILY A GREAT JOB.

>> DID YOU EVER GET INSTRUCTION FROM THE ADMINISTRATION THAT SUGGESTED TO YOU THAT IF YOU DID NOT RULE IN A CERTAIN WAY THAT YOUR JOB WOULD BE IN JEOPARDY?

GEORGE, DO YOU WANT TO START?

>> LET ME START WITH THAT, BECAUSE IT DID HAPPEN TO ME.

IT HAPPENED INDIRECTLY AND DIRECTLY PART DIRECTLY, I WAS TOLD THAT I SHOULD GRAB A MOTION TO DISMISS.

THIS IS ONE WE HAD I.C.E.

OFFICERS COMING INTO THE COURTHOUSE.

I WAS IN VERY VIGOROUS TERMS, PRESSURED TO GRANT MOTIONS.

IF YOU GRANT THAT MOTION, THEY RESPOND TO NO LONGER IN REMOVAL PROCEEDINGS.

AS SOON AS THEY LEAVE THE IMMIGRATION COURT, THEY WOULD HANDCUFF OR ARREST THEM AND PLACE THEM INTO EXPEDITED REMOVAL, THEN SHIP THEM TO GOD KNOWS WHERE.

SOUTH SUDAN, EL SALVADOR OR GULAGS IN RUSSIA.

THIS IS WHAT CHIEF WANTED ME DO.

TELLING ME HOW TO ROLL IN A SPECIFIC CASE AND IT WAS IN CONTRADICTION OF TRAINING THAT WE RECEIVED TO BE FAIR AND PROVIDE A FAIR HEARING AND PROMOTE DUE PROCESS.

IF YOU ARE TELLING ME HOW TO ROLL IN A CASE LIKE THIS THAT THE GERMANS, WHETHER A PERSON STAYS OR GOES, YOU ARE SERVING DUE PROCESS, SO THAT WAS A DIRECT INTERFERENCE WITH MY JUDICIAL NEUTRALITY.

INDIRECTLY, THERE WERE OTHER WAYS THAT THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF IMMIGRATION WAS PRESSURING US AND MORE RECENT MEMO OF JUNE 27 BASICALLY SAID, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, TO ALL THE JUDGES, WE ARE HERE TO PROMOTE FAIRNESS AND DUE PROCESS, BUT WE HAVE SEEN THAT APPLES THAT ARE BIASED.

WE DON'T LIKE THAT.

IF YOU ARE A BIASED JUDGE, YOU NEED A DIFFERENT CAREER OTHERWISE YOU ARE FIRED.

I AM PARAPHRASING.

THAT IS A MEMO AND THAT IS A SHOCKING MEMO.

THAT MEMO MASQUERADES.

MASQUERADES PROMOTING DUE PROCESS AND FAIRNESS.

WHAT IT IMPOSES IS A DIFFERENT LEVEL OF STRESS ON ALL JUDGES.

NOW, THEY HAVE TO SELF POLICE THEMSELVES.

AM I MAKING THE RIGHT DECISION?

AM I USING THE RIGHT WORDS?

THEY WOULDN'T BE SECOND- GUESSING, SO IT ADDS ANOTHER LEVEL OF TERROR AND INTIMIDATION ON JUDGES.

THAT IS WHAT I SAW.

>> JUDGE PEYTON, WHAT ABOUT YOU?

YOU GIVEN INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO RULE IN YOUR CASES?

WERE YOU GIVEN INSTRUCTION THAT YOU ARE EXPECTED TO PASS ON TO THE OTHER JUDGES THAT YOU SUPERVISED?

>> MY ROLE AS A SUPERVISOR, I DID RECEIVE AN EMAIL ON THE 30th AND IN THAT EMAIL IT WAS GUIDANCE SAYING --THE EMAIL CONTAINED A LOT OF LANGUAGE, IMMIGRATION JUDGES MAY DISMISS CASE JUDGES AND ADJUDICATIONS ON THE RECORDS AND IT MAY, BUT WHEN I RECEIVED THAT EMAIL, WE HAD A MEETING BECAUSE MYSELF BELIEVED THAT IT MEANT SHOULD AND THAT WE SHOULD DISMISS AND SHOULDN'T WAIT 10 DAYS FOR A RESPONSE AND WE SHOULD IMMEDIATELY ASK ON THESE TWO DISMISS AND NOT REQUIRED 10 DAY RESPONSE FOR THE INDIVIDUALS TO REVIEW THAT AND PERHAPS THE COUNCIL AND TRY A WRITTEN RESPONSE TO MOTION TO DISMISS.

>> IS THAT LEGAL?

>> THE LANGUAGE WAS CAREFUL AND COUCHED IN THIS MAY.

WHEN WE READ IT, WE ALL PERCEIVED AS IT SHOULD.

WHEN I TAUGHT JUDGES IN CLASS AND PART OF THE TRAINING CREW THAT TAUGHT HIM, WE EMPHASIZED EACH JUDGE AND TRAINING THAT YOU MAKE A DECISION ON THE FACTS IN FRONT OF YOU AND YOU INDEPENDENTLY REVIEW AND ADJUDICATE AND YOU DON'T TAKE THE PRESSURES AND SAID HER COURTROOM WHEN MAKING DECISIONS.

WHEN YOU RECEIVE THIS EMAIL AND EVERYTHING, WE HEARD HOW WE HAD COMPLETED AND TRAINED JUDGES.

ASK YOU.

THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE LISTENING TO THIS CONVERSATION.

THAT'S A SHAME, BUT WHY DO I CARE?

THERE ARE MORE OR LESS 3.5 MILLION CASES IN THE IMMIGRATION COURT.

OF THOSE CASES, MAYBE 2 MILLION WITH PENDING APPLICATIONS FOR ASYLUM OR OTHER RELIEF.

FILING, TERMINATING AND MAKING THEM QUICK OVER CLOSE TO 130 JUDGES SINCE JANUARY.

WE ARE NOW REDUCING THE JUDGES NUMBERS TO 600 AND SAYING THIS INCREASED EXPANSION WITH TWO HUGE NUMBERS IN THE ENFORCEMENT BUDGET AND NO SIMILAR INCREASE IN BUDGETS TO THE IMMIGRATION COURTS.

IT IS SHOWING THAT THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT JUSTICE.

THE IMMIGRATION JUDGES ARE ONES WHO HEAR THESE APPLICATIONS AND THEY HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO DECIDE WHETHER THE RESPONDENT HAS MET THE BURDEN TO ESTABLISH ELIGIBILITY FOR RELIEF.

BY FIRING THOSE JUDGES, INCLUDING THOSE THAT ARE AGAIN, NOT CAREER APPOINTEES, WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR OUR COUNTRY?

>> WHAT ABOUT YOU?

IF SOMEONE WERE TO SAY TO YOU, THAT'S TOO BAD AND THAT'S A SHAME, BUT WHY SHOULD I BE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS?

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

>> THEY SHOULD BE CONCERNED.

WHEN YOU DISMANTLE DUE PROCESS PROTECTIONS FOR IMMIGRANTS, YOU ARE ALSO ATTACKING DUE PROCESS PROTECTIONS FOR U.S. CITIZENS AND CIVIL LIBERTIES.

THESE RAIDS CURRENTLY, YOU NOT ONLY HAVE NON-US CITIZENS BEING ARRESTED AND DEPORTED WITHOUT DUE PROCESS, BUT ALSO U.S. CITIZENS WHO HAVE BEEN ARRESTED WITHOUT PROBABLE CAUSE.

THAT IS A VIOLATION OF THE U.S. AS JENNIFER HAS RIGHTLY IDENTIFIED, WE HAD A HUGE INCREASE IN SUPPORTING ENFORCEMENT AND WE HAD DESTRUCTION AND ATTACK ON SYSTEM ON JUDGES, WHICH MEANS IF YOU HAVE NO JUSTICE AND YOU ONLY HAVE AN ESTIMATE, YOU NO LONGER HAVE DEMOCRACY, BUT AUTHORITARIAN STATE.

THAT IS WHY EVERY AMERICAN CITIZEN NEEDS TO UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS NOT JUST AN IMMIGRATION PROBLEM, BUT A CIVIL LIBERTY THREAT.

EVERYBODY SHOULD BE IN FEAR, BECAUSE CIVIL LIBERTY PROTECTIONS ARE UNDER ATTACK.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU, MICHELLE.

>>> TO THAT POINT, THE TIME FOR INJUSTICE IS GONE.

WITH THESE WORDS, PRESIDENT LYNDON B. JOHNSON SIGNED THE VOTING IKE RIGHTS ACT INTO LAW.

THE 96 TO 5 LANDMARK LEGISLATION IN TRYING TO WRITE ABOUT REGARDLESS OF RACE, HARD- RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

AMONGST THOSE FEARLESS VOICES WITH THE LATE JOHN LEWIS.

THIS IS WHAT HE TOLD ME IN 2016.

>> WHEN YOU SEE SOMETHING THAT IS NOT RIGHT, NOT FAIR, NOT JUST, MORAL OBLIGATION TO SPEAK UP AND SPEAK OUT AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

>> THIS CRITICAL MOMENT FOR AMERICAN DEMOCRACY WHEN THE VOTING RIGHTS ACT FACES EVER GREATER THREATS THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

TRICKY FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE.