>> THIS WEEK MARKS 80 YEARS SINCE UNITED STATES BOMBS WERE DROPPED ON HIROSHIMA AND NAGASAKI, KILLING AN ESTIMATED 200,000 PEOPLE WHILE IT ENDED THE SECOND WORLD WAR THE TRAGIC LEGACY OF THE BOMBINGS STILL LINGERS TODAY.

IMPORTANT MOMENT IN THE DEVIL REACHED TOWARD THE SKY WHICH GATHERS ACCOUNTS OF THOSE INVOLVED IN THE BOMBINGS FROM THE CREW OF THE BOMBERS TO THE DECISION MAKERS.

THE OUGHT FOR JOINS US TO DISCUSS THE POLITICAL, DEEPLY PERSONAL IMPACT OF HOW THE BOMBS CAME TO BE.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> THIS IS YOUR THIRD ORAL HISTORY BOOK YOU DID ONE ON D DAY, YOU DID ONE ON 9/11.

WHY THE FORMAT OF AN ORAL HISTORY ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE NOT REALLY INTERVIEWING MOST OF THE PEOPLE.

IT'S GATHERING THEIR INTERVIEW FROM THE PAST.

>> EXACTLY.

THIS BOOK IS COMING OF COURSE AT THE 80th ANNIVERSARY THIS MONTH OF THE BOMBINGS AND THE END OF WORLD WAR II.

I THINK THIS 80th ANNIVERSARY FEELS SO IMPORTANT TO A LOT OF PEOPLE BECAUSE IT MARKS THE UNOFFICIAL PASSING OF THE LAST OF THAT GREATEST GENERATION.

SO, FOR ME WHAT I WANTED TO DO WITH THIS PROJECT AND WITH MY D DAY BOOK LAST YEAR WAS THIS IS A MOMENT WHEN WE HAVE EFFECTIVELY EVERY FIRST PERSON MEMORY OF WORLD WAR II THAT WE ARE EVER GOING TO HAVE AND SO AS THESE EVENTS SLIP FROM LIVING MEMORY INTO HISTORY I WANTED TO TRY TO TAKE READERS BACK TO THESE EVENTS IN THE SHOES OF THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED THEM FIRSTHAND.

I LOVE NARRATIVE HISTORY BUT THERE'S OFTEN A SENSE THAT EVENTS ARE SORT OF NEATER, CLEANER MORE PREORDAINED THAN THEY ACTUALLY FELT TO ANY OF THE PARTICIPANTS AT THE TIME.

I THINK THERE'S A UNIQUE POWER IN ORAL HISTORY OF SORT OF GOING BACK IN THE WORDS OF THE PEOPLE WHO LIVED THEM TO A EVENTS WAS UNCERTAIN TO THEM.

YOU KNOW YOU ARE GOING BACK AND SORT OF HEARING FROM THE SCIENTISTS AT MOMENTS WHEN LIKE THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER HITLER WOULD GET THE BOMB FIRST THEY DON'T KNOW THAT THE UNITED STATES WOULD --THE ALLIES WOULD WIN WORLD WAR II.

THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHETHER THE BOMB WOULD WORK AT ALL.

>> WHAT DID YOU DISCOVER THAT WAS DIFFERENT THAN BASED ON THEM TALKING AT THE TIME?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT COMES THROUGH WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DIVERSITY OF VOICES IN A PROJECT LIKE THIS IS I THINK WE OVER SIMPLIFY THE STORY OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT SO OFTEN TO JAY ROBERT OPPENHEIMER AND HIS BAND OF SCIENTISTS ON A MESA IN LOS ALAMOS WHAT YOU REALLY SEE IN THE FULL SCOPE AND SCALE OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT IS HOW MUCH OF THIS WAS ABOUT AMERICA'S INDUSTRIAL MIGHT.

THE SECRET CITIES THAT WE BUILT IN OAKRIDGE TENNESSEE AND HANFORD WASHINGTON WHERE REFINED OTHER URANIUM IN FACTORIES AND CITIES THAT HAD BEEN CARVED OUT OF ORCHARDS AND, YOU KNOW MOUNTAIN VALLEYS.

BY THE END OF THE WAR HOUSED AND EMPLOYED 100,000 PEOPLE EACH.

YOU KNOW THE BUS SYSTEM IN OAKRIDGE TENNESSEE IN AUGUST 1945 WHEN THE BOMB WAS DROPPED WAS ONE OF THE TEN LARGEST PUBLIC TRANSIT SYSTEMS IN THE UNITED STATES AND NO ONE KNEW IT EXISTED AT ALL AND THE CITY DIDN'T APPEAR ON ANY PUBLIC MAP ANYWHERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> YOU KNOW JUST HEAR THAT AND READING IT MAKES ME THINK COULD WE DO THAT?

WE CAN'T BUILD A RAIL SYSTEM IN CALIFORNIA AFTER 20 YEARS.

>> YEAH.

I THINK THAT THERE IS A LOT BE SAID ABOUT THE --YOU KNOW WHAT THIS ERA MEANT IN TERMS OF NEWS CONCUSSION AND THE ABILITY OF THESE MOUNTAIN COMMUNITIES AND DESERT COMMUNITIES IN EASTERN WASHINGTON TO KEEP SECRETS BACK THEN THAT COULD NEVER HOLD IN THE AGE OF THE INTERNET.

I THINK THERE IS, YOU KNOW THERE'S SOME VERY IMPORTANT MODERN RELEVANCES OF LOOKING BACK AT THIS PROJECT TODAY.

FIRST THE MANHATTAN PROJECT REWRITES THE WAY THAT GOVERNMENT THINKS ABOUT SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY AS A CORE NATIONAL STRENGTH.

YOU KNOW THERE'S A DEEP IRONY IN THE FIRST COUPLE OF YEARS OF THE BOOK WHERE YOU HAVE THIS GROUP OF MOSTLY JEWISH REFUGEE SCIENTISTS PLEADING THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT TO LAUNCH AN ATOMIC BOMB EFFORT AND THE MILITARY WANTING NOTHING TO DO KNOW BASICALLY LIKE SCIENCE HAS NO PLACE IN THE MILITARY, YOU KNOW.

THE MILITARY IS ALL ABOUT YOU KNOW WAR FIGHTING LOGISTICS AND MORALE AND WE DON'T NEED A WEAPON LIKE THIS AND OF COURSE THE MILITARY GETS PRETTY EXCITED ABOUT THE BOMB A FEW MONTHS LATER AFTER PEARL HARBOR.

>> A LOT OF PEOPLE CHANGES THAT --YOU HAVE THEM IN THE BOOK IS BUSH WHO COMPARED THIS TO BUILDING THE PAIR MIDS AND HE IS THE ONE WHO PUTS TOGETHER THAT GOVERNMENT PRIVATE, ACADEMIC GROUP THAT DOES SO MUCH.

TELL ME ABOUT HIS ROLE.

>> YEAH.

THIS IS OF COURSE WHERE AMERICA SORT OF STARTS TO KNIT TOGETHER GOVERNMENT AND SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S A CUTE QUOTE WHERE THE STORY THAT WE TELL OF WORLD WAR II IS ABOUT WHERE THE BATTLES ARE FOUGHT.

YOU KNOW D DAY, OKINAWA.

>> OMAHA BEACH.

>> EXACTLY.

WHERE THE WAR IS REALLY WON IS IN LABS AT MIT, WHERE RADAR AND THE PROXIMITY FUSE WAS DEVELOPED, AT THE LABS AT LOS ALAMOS AND THE CODE BREAKING ROOMS IN THE UK.

YOU KNOW AS MUCH AS WE THINK OF WORLD WAR II AS A STORY OF THE SERVICEMEN IN EUROPE AND THE PACIFIC IT REALLY IS A WAR THAT IS AS MUCH A STORY OF SCIENTISTS.

>> BUT IT'S NOT JUST THE SCIENTISTS WHAT STRUCK ME WAS THE FORD MOTOR PLANT AND WILLOW RUN AND OUR ABILITY WHICH I FEEL WE HAVE LOST A LITTLE BIT NOW TO DO THE MANUFACTURING AT SCALE QUICKLY.

>> THAT'S REALLY WHERE THE MAGIC OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT COMES IN.

THERE'S A REASON THAT THE MANHATTAN PROJECT TODAY REMAINS, YOU KNOW A CODE WORD FOR DARING AND AUDACITY.

PART OF THAT IS IN THE EARLY MONTHS YOU HAVE PEOPLE AT THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO STARTING TO MAP OUT ON PIECES OF PAPER.

REMEMBER THIS IS AN ERA THEY ARE WORKING WITH SLIDE RULERS.

THERE ARE NO COMPUTERS AIDING THIS ENGINEERING MOST OF THE WAR.

WITH THE SLIDE RULERS AND BUTCHER PAPER THEY ARE STARTING TO MAP OUT HOW TO BUILD AND REFINE PLUTONIUM IN ORDERS OF KILOGRAMS WHEN IT'S NEVER BEEN SEEN BY THE NAKED HUMAN EYE AND IT LITERALLY EXISTS IN THE UNITED STATES ONLY IN SMALL AMOUNTS.

E YOU TALK ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE WHO CONVINCED THE MILITARY AND FOR THAT MATTER PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT TO DO THE BOMB A LOT OF THEM THE JEWISH REFUGEES.

TELL ME ABOUT THE ROLE OF REFUGEES AND IF THAT HAS RELEVANCE TODAY WHEN WE AREN'T ALLOWING IN AS MANY FOREIGN SCIENTISTS.

>> I THINK THAT UNFORTUNATELY TWO --TO MANY PLACES FEELS LIKE A HISTORY BOOK THAT COULD BE FILED UNDER CURRENT EVENTS IN THE BOOKSTORE BECAUSE, AGAIN, THIS --ATOMIC BOMB PROJECT WOULD HAVE NEVER GOTTEN OFF THE GROUND WITHOUT THE LEADERSHIP AND THE IMAGINATION OF THE JEWISH REFUGEE SCIENTISTS WHO FLEE, COME TO THE UNITED STATES IN THE 30s AND 40s AND IN THAT SENSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT REALLY STANDS OUT FOR ME IN THE BOOK IS WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE ATOMIC BOMB AND THE 80th ANNIVERSARY WE LEAP TO THINKING ABOUT JAPAN AND HIROSHIMA AND THE END OF THE WAR IN THE BOMB IS ROOTED IN EUROPE AND THE RISE OF HITLER AND IT'S IN FACT THE MOTIVATING FACTOR FOR THE SCIENTISTS IS THEY KNOW THE GERMAN SCIENTISTS LEFT BEHIND WHO THEY FEAR ARE AT WORK THEMSELVES ON THE ATOMIC BOMB AND SO THEIR MOTIVATION DAY IN, DAY OUT FOR MOST OF THE THREE YEARS OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT IS TO BUILD THE ATOMIC BOMB BEFORE HITLER DOES.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT OAKRIDGE AS A WONDERFUL SCENE OR DISCUSSION IN THE BOOK ABOUT THE YOUNG WOMEN IN OAKRIDGE THE HIGH SCHOOL GRADUATES IN THE RACE I THINK IT'S TO PRODUCE PLUTONIUM.

>> URANIUM, YEAH.

>> AND TELL ME ABOUT HOW THAT WAS IMPORTANT.

>> YEAH.

THIS IS --SORT OF AGAIN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SORT OF INDUSTRIAL POWER OF THE UNITED STATES AND THE ROLE OF, YOU KNOW, FORD MOTOR COMPANY BUILDING BOMBERS OR DUPONT AND TENNESSEE EAST MAN END UP THE BIG CORPORATE PLAYERS IN THE MANHATTAN PROJECT AND IN THAT FACILITY TENNESSEE EAST MAN IS LOOKING AROUND AT WHAT IT'S LABOR WORKFORCE COULD BE AS THEY NEED TO HIRE THOUSANDS AND TENS OF THOUSANDS OF WORKERS AND REMOTE MOUNTAIN TENNESSEE OUTSIDE KNOXVILLE.

THEY SETTLE ON HIGH SCHOOL GIRLS FROM THE SURROUNDING COMMUNITY.

YOU KNOW THAT'S WHO IS LEFT IN THE WORKFORCE BY 43, 44.

YOU HAVE ALL THE FANCY CALIFORNIA, BERKELEY PHD'S SAYING, YOU KNOW, WE DON'T THINK THESE WOMEN CAN ACTUALLY OPERATE THESE URANIUM REFINING MACHINES AND THEN THEY PUT THEM IN A HEAD TO HEAD TEST AND IT TURNS OUT THE TEEN GIRLS IN TENNESSEE OUT PREFORMED THE PRODUCTION AND WHAT IS JUST SO INCREDIBLE AGAIN ABOUT THE SECRECY OF THIS IS MOST OF THOSE WOMEN WHO WERE KNOWN AT THE TIME AS CALUTRON GIRLS WORKED ON THOSE --YOU KNOWMACHINES 24 HOURS A DAY, THREE SHIFTS A DAY.

REFINING AND CREATING URANIUM AND HEARD THE WORD URANIUM FOR THE FIRST TIME WHEN HARRY TRUMAN ANNOUNCES THE EXISTENCE OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT ON AUGUST 6th 1945.

THEY NEVER KNOW WHAT THEY WERE DOING BEHIND THOSE MACHINES AND WHAT THEY ARE CONTRIBUTING TO THE WAR EFFORT.

>> WHEN YOU TALK AT PEOPLE NOT REALLY KNOWING ALL THE STEPS IN THE PROCESS THAT THEY WERE CONTRIBUTING TO THAT GOES ALL THE WAY UP TO HARRY TRAUMAN WHO DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE BOMB UNTIL ROOSEVELT DIED AND HE BECAME PRESIDENT.

TELL ME ABOUT HOW THAT WORKED.

MOST AMAZING SCENES IN THE BOOK IS FRANKLIN ROOSEVELT DIED, SPRING 1945, HARRY TRUMAN IS SWORN IN AND THE SECRETARY OF WAR SORT OF STAYS AFTER THE FIRST CABINET MEETING AND PULLS HIM ASIDE AND SAYS THERE'S SOMETHING I SHOULD COME TALK TO YOU ABOUT.

THEN SORT OF SHOWS UP WITH THIS BRIEFING WHERE HE BRINGS HARRY TRUMAN IN TO THE FOLD FOR THE FIRST TIME ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OF THE MANHATTAN PROJECT.

THE IDEA OF THE ATOMIC BOMB AND THE FACT THAT AT THAT POINT THEY ARE MERE WEEKS AWAY FROM HAVING THE FIRST WORKING NUCLEAR --NUCLEAR DEVICE IN THE WORLD.

>> AND THERE'S A DECISION MADE TO DROP THE BOMB BUT IT'S NOT ACTUALLY A CLEAR DECISION IT'S NOT LIKE THEY HAVE A VERY FORMAL PROCESS IN TRUMAN MAKING A DECISION.

IT SEEMS ALMOST LIKE JUST -- INSTINCT THAT HE DOES IT.

HOW IS THAT DECISION MADE AND DID HE HAVE ANY REGRETS?

>> YEAH.

I SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN THE BOOK TALKING ABOUT WHAT YOU MAY CALL THE PERMISSION STRUCTURE FOR THE ATOMIC BOMB IN THE SPRING AND SUMMER OF 1945 BECAUSE YOU KNOW WE LOOK BACK ON THAT EVENT AS SO TRANSFORMING, YOU KNOW.

THE ONLY TIME WE EVER USE THESE WEAPONS IN COMBAT IN HUMAN HISTORY BUT AT THE TIME WE WERE INVOLVED IN THIS BRUTAL AND DEADLY WAR WITH JAPAN IN THAT SPRING OF 1945, C THERE'S BOMBING MISSIONS AGAINST JAPAN, FIRE BOMBING TOKYO AND OPERATION MEETING HOUSE THAT SPRING THAT KILLS 100,000 JAPANESE IN A SINGLE NIGHT.

THE DEADLIEST NIGHT OF CONFLICT ONTO BOMB A TOTAL OF 66 66 JAPANESE CITIESES, SINGLE MISSION RAIDS DESTROYING 30, 40, 50, EVEN 70% OF THESE CITIES IN SINGLE NIGHTS.

>> DID THE SECRETARY OF WAR -- WASN'T HE ONE OF THE ONES THAT UNDERSTOOD WE ARE GOING INTO A NEW, RA IF WE DROP THIS BOMB?

>> YES AND THEY DO UNDERSTAND THIS IS A BIGGER BOMB THAT THIS IS A DIFFERENT --A DIFFERENT TYPE OF WEAPON BUT THEY --THEY DON'T NECESSARILY THINK ABOUT IT IN THE SAME SORT OF STARK TERMS OF CIVILIAN DEATHS I THINK WE NOW THINK OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

>> IN RETROSPECT WERE WE RIGHT TO DROP THE FIRST BOMB?

>> IT'S A COMPLICATED QUESTION I DON'T THINK WE WILL EVER SATISFY IT ONE WAY OR ANOTHER.

YOU KNOW I THINK ALL OF THE FOLLOWING ARE TRUE.

THE DROPPING OF THE BOMB CERTAINLY SAVES AMERICAN LIVES.

IT PROBABLY SAVES JAPANESE LIVES.

I MEAN ONE OF THE THINGS PEOPLE LOOSE SIGHT OF IS JAPAN IS IN THE MIDDLE OF A NAVAL BLOCKADE WITH WIDESPREAD FAMINE AND 200,000 JAPANESE CIVILIANS DYING EVERY MONTH OF STARVATION BY THE SUMMER AND FALL OF 1945.

AT THE SAME TIME I THINK THAT IT IS HARD TO LOOK BACK AND THINK THAT THESE ARE WEAPONS WE COULD EVER USE AGAIN.

I THINK THAT --.

>> WE USED THEM AGAIN IN NAGASAKI AGAIN A FEW DAYS LATER.

>> I MEAN IN FUTURE CONFLICTS.

IVE THINK CONFLICTS.

THE ORGANIZING PRINCIPLE OF GEO POLITICS AFTER THE WAR BECOMES NEVER USING THEM AGAIN.

>> ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THAT?

AT THIS MOMENT AND I THINK PART OF THIS MOMENT IN GEO POLITICS IS WE LIE A LOT CLOSER TO NUCLEAR DANGER THAN MOST PEOPLE I THINK REALIZE.

WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN THIS YEAR, YOU KNOW CONFLICT BETWEEN INDIA AND PAKISTAN WHICH ARE THE TWO LARGEST NUCLEAR ARSENALS TO COME INTO OPEN CONFLICT WE HAVE SEEN THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAELI RAIDS OVER IRAN'S NUCLEAR PROBLEM AND WE HAVE SEEN, YOU KNOW, SPREADING CONVERSATIONS ABOUT NUCLEAR SPREAD IN EUROPE AND ASIA AS THE UNITED STATES APPEARS TO PULL BACK FROM SOME OF ITS GEO POLITIC ALLIANCES.

>> YOU WENT THROUGH HUNDREDS OF ACCOUNTS OF THE SURVIVORS OF THE BOMB.

TELL ME WHAT YOU LEARNED.

>> YEAH.

THE FINAL CHAPTERS OF THE BOOK, YOU KNOW, I GO BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN THE MANHATTAN WORKERS AND THE BOMBER CREWS THAT DELIVER THESE BOMBS AND THEN THE TRAGEDY ON THE GROUND IN HIROSHIMA AND NAG ASAKI.

THE ACCOUNTS FROM THOSE CITIES CITIES AS SEARING AS ANY MEMORIES I HAVE COME ACROSS IN MY HISTORICAL RESEARCH.

I THINK AGAIN ONE OF THE THINGS I REALLY WANTED TO DO WITH THIS PROJECT IS OVER THE NEXT FEW YEARS WE WILL SEE THE PASSING OF THE LAST SURVIVORS OF THOSE BOMBS.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO ME TO CARRY THEIR STORIES FORWARD AS A REMINDER ABOUT WHY THESE WEAPONS ARE NOT LIKE ANY OTHER WEAPONS IN THE HUMAN ARSENAL AND WHY WE NEED TO DO EVERYTHING THAT WE CAN IN OUR TIME TO CARRY FORWARD UNDER DREAM THAT THEY ARE THE LAST SURVIVORS OF A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

>> GARRET, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> WALTER, ALWAYS A PLEASURE.