>> FUNDING FOR "TO THE CONTRARY" PROVIDED BY THE E. RHODES AND LEONA B. CARPENTER FOUNDATION, THE COLCOM FOUNDATION, AND THE CHARLES A. FRUEAUFF FOUNDATION.

>> Bonnie: HELLO AND WELCOME TO THIS EDITION OF "TO THE CONTRARY" ON PBS.

I AM HOST BONNIE ERBE.

AND WITH ME TO DISCUSS A VERY TOUGH ISSUE IS PROFESSOR DIANA GREENE FOSTER OF UCFS.

SHE WAS THE PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATOR OF THE STUDY, A LONG, LONG TERM STUDY OF 1000 WOMEN WHO WERE EITHER GRANTED ABORTIONS OR DENIED ABORTIONS, AND SHE STUDIED THE DIFFERENT ECONOMIC IMPACTS AND THE PERSONAL HEALTH AND WELL-BEING IMPACTS OF BEING DENIED OR BEING ABLE TO SECURE A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE.

WELCOME, DR. FOSTER.

HOW ARE YOU?

>> Diana: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME, BONNIE.

>> Bonnie: FIRST OF ALL, YOU ARE THE PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATOR ON THE STUDY.

WHAT ARE YOUR CREDENTIALS TO DO THAT, IF YOU COULD PLEASE TELL THE AUDIENCE?

SECONDLY, WHY?

>> Diana: SO I'M A PROFESSOR IN THE OF SEX TRICKS GYNECOLOGY AND REPRODUCTIVE SCIENCES DEPARTMENT AT UCFS.

I'M A DEMOGRAPHER BY TRAINING, WHICH MEANS THAT I'M AN EXPERT IN STATISTICS HAVING TO DO WITH BIRTH AND DEATH IN MIGRATION WHICH REALLY MEANS YOU CAN STUDY ANYTHING INTERESTING TO HUMAN LIFE WITHOUT KNOWLEDGE OF STATISTICS.

SO I HAVE A PHD FROM PRINCETON, AND I'VE BEEN DOING MANY STUDIES OVER THE PAST SEVERAL DECADES ON WOMEN'S ATTITUDES TOWARDS CONTRACEPTION AND ACCESS TO ABORTION.

AND ONE DAY IN MY DEPARTMENT, THE MEDICAL DIRECTOR OF THE ABORTION FACILITY SAID TO ME, I WONDER WHAT HAPPENS TO THE PEOPLE WE TURN AWAY.

AND IT WAS NEWS TO ME THAT ABORTION FACILITIES REGULARLY TURNED PEOPLE AWAY.

BUT WHERE SHE WAS VOICING CONCERN FOR HER FATE PATIENTS OR PEOPLE SHE CANNOT HELP, I IMMEDIATELY SAW THAT THAT'S THE POPULATION WE NEED TO FOLLOW IF WE WANT TO UNDERSTAND THE IMPACT OF ABORTION ON WOMEN'S LIVES.

SO, THERE HAVE BEEN STUDIES OF WOMEN HAVING ABORTIONS, BUT, YOU KNOW, WOMEN HAVING ABORTIONS COMPARED TO WOMEN HAVING WANTED PREGNANCIES IS NOT AN ACCURATE COMPARISON.

SO IF YOU WANT TO SAY, WELL, WOMAN WHO WAS PREGNANT AND DOES NOT WANT TO BE, WHAT ARE HER OPTIONS?

HER OPTIONS ARE TO HAVE AN ABORTION OR TO CARRY THE PREGNANCY TO TERM AND HAVE A BABY.

IT WAS A CHANCE TO FOLLOW BOTH ROUTES AND SEE WHAT HAPPENED.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

BUT IT ALSO RELATES BACK TO SOMETHING SAID IN A SUPREME COURT DECISION BY A FORMER JUSTICE, ANTHONY KENNEDY.

PLEASE TELL ME ABOUT, WHAT THE STORY, HOW THAT EVOLVED AND WHY IT PROMPTED YOU TO DO THE STUDY.

>> Diana: YEAH.

SO THE IDEA THAT ABORTION HURTS WOMEN HAS RESONATED THROUGH OUR CULTURE AND AS A SLOGAN FOR ANTIABORTION ACTIVISTS, AND THAT MESSAGE HAS MADE IT TO STATE LEGISLATORS WHO PASSED RESTRICTIONS THAT TRY TO PROTECT WOMEN FROM MAKING THAT DECISION.

AND IT MADE IT ALL THE WAY UP TO THE SUPREME COURT.

AS YOU SAID, JUSTICE KENNEDY USED IT, THE IDEA THAT WOMEN WOULD COME TO REGRET HAVING AN ABORTION AND THAT DEPRESSION AND LOSS OF SELF-ESTEEM WOULD FOLLOW.

AND HE PREFACED THE SENTENCE WITH THE IDEA THAT THERE WERE NO RELIABLE DATA.

THAT WAS 2007 SUPREME COURT CASE, AND IT WAS REALLY TIME FOR SOME RELIABLE DATA.

AND IT HAPPENED THAT YEAR, IS WHEN WE WERE VIOLATING THE TURN AWAY STUDY, TESTING WHETHER WOMEN WOULD AGREE TO PARTICIPATE AND WHETHER WE CAN FOLLOW THEM OVER TIME.

SO IT'S BEEN AN OPEN QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER ABORTION HURTS WOMEN, AND THIS IS THE STUDY TO HELP ACTUALLY ANSWER THE QUESTION.

>> Bonnie: YOU SAID, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION OUT THERE.

YOUR SURVEY JUST CAME OUT THIS SUMMER AND IN THE MIDDLE OF, YOU KNOW, THE COVID EPIDEMIC.

HAS IT REACHED ENOUGH PEOPLE?

DO YOU THINK, DO YOU HAVE ENOUGH PUBLICITY?

HAVE YOU BEEN ON TV AND INTERVIEWED AND IN THE NEWSPAPERS, WHATEVER?

>> Professor Diana: SO THAT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT QUESTION, WHETHER THE MESSAGE OF THE TURN AWAY STUDY IS GETTING OUT THERE.

WE HAVE BEEN PUBLISHING IN THE SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE FOR THE LAST FIVE OR SO YEARS.

AND SO, WE HAVE 50 ACADEMIC PAPERS IN THE SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE.

SO, WE HAVE REACHED SCIENTISTS.

AND HERE, THE CHANCE OF THE BOOK IS TO REACH VOTERS, TO REACH POLICYMAKERS, PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT BE UP ON THE SCIENCE LITERATURE.

WE HAD SPENT SO MUCH TIME WORRYING ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF ABORTION AND NOT THINKING ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF DENYING PEOPLE OF WANTED ABORTION.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

SO, AND THAT'S A PERFECT JUMPING OFF POINT TO ASK.

YOUR FINDINGS WERE WHAT?

>> Professor Diana: FIRST TO THE QUESTION, DOES ABORTION HURT WOMEN, WE FIND NO LONG-TERM DIFFERENCES IN MENTAL HEALTH SYSTEMS AND DIAGNOSIS BETWEEN WOMEN WHO RECEIVED AND WOMEN WHO WERE DENIED ABORTIONS.

AND IT'S NOT THAT BOTH GROUPS WERE DOING SO TERRIBLY.

IN FACT, BOTH GROUPS IMPROVE OVER TIME.

SO, THERE IS NOT A LONG-TERM MENTAL HEALTH HARM FROM BEING DENIED AN ABORTION OR RECEIVING AN ABORTION, THE WOMEN WHO WERE DENIED ABORTIONS HAVE WORST MENTAL HEALTH AT THE VERY BEGINNING.

BUT THE TWO GROUPS DO DIVERGE DRAMATICALLY, AND ALL OF THE WAYS IN WHICH THEIR EXPERIENCES DIFFER CAN BE -- ARE EASILY PREDICTED WHEN YOU ASK WOMEN, WHY DO YOU WANT TO HAVE AN ABORTION?

ALL OF THE CONCERNS THAT THEY RAISED ARE EXPERIENCED BY THE WOMEN WHO WERE DENIED ABORTION.

FOR EXAMPLE, WOMEN SAY I CANNOT AFFORD TO HAVE A BABY OR I CANNOT AFFORD TO HAVE ANOTHER BABY, AND WE SEE THAT WOMEN WHO ARE DENIED ABORTIONS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE POOR, MORE LIKELY TO LIVE IN HOUSES WHERE THERE IS NOT ENOUGH MONEY TO PAY FOR BASIC LIVING EXPENSES.

THEY SAY, MY RELATIONSHIP IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH WITH THE MAN INVOLVED IN THE PREGNANCY TO TAKE CARE OF A CHILD TOGETHER, AND WE SEE THAT, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE WOMAN RECEIVED OR WAS DENIED THE ABORTION, THOSE RELATIONSHIPS DISSOLVE.

AND THEN ANOTHER EXAMPLE THAT I COULD GIVE YOU ALL THE REASONS WOMEN GIVE ABORTIONS AND HOW THEIR EXPERIENCES ARE BORNE OUT, WOMEN SAY THEY WANT TO TAKE CARE OF THE CHILDREN THEY ALREADY HAVE.

SO 60 PERCENT OF WOMEN WHO HAVE ABORTIONS ARE ALREADY MOTHERS.

AND WE SEE THAT IF WHEN WE ASK WOMEN ABOUT THE WELL-BEING OF THEIR EXISTING CHILDREN, WE SEE WAYS IN WHICH THOSE EXISTING CHILDREN DO WORSE WHEN THEIR MOM IS DENIED AN ABORTION COMPARED TO WHEN THEIR MOM RECEIVES ONE.

SO -- >> Bonnie: BUT LET ME GO BACK TO THE POINT YOU MADE A MINUTE OR TWO AGO: YOU SAID LONG-TERM, AND WAS A PHYSICALLY OR EMOTIONALLY OR FINANCIALLY?

THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO GROUPS.

WHAT WAS -- >> Professor Diana: IN TERMS OF MENTAL HEALTH OVER FIVE YEARS, IT WAS NO DIFFERENCE.

IN TERMS OF SOCIOECONOMIC OUTCOMES, THERE WAS A DIFFERENCE, AND IT LASTED FOR FIVE YEARS.

IN TERMS OF PHYSICAL HEALTH OUTCOMES, WE FOUND THAT, CONSISTENT WITH THE MEDICAL LITERATURE, CARRYING A PREGNANCY ALL THE WAY TO TERM AND DELIVERING A CHILD IS ASSOCIATED WITH GREATER PHYSICAL HEALTH RISKS, AND WE ACTUALLY SEE WORSE PHYSICAL HEALTH OVER TIME FOR WOMEN WHO ARE DENIED ABORTIONS THAN WOMEN WHO WERE ABLE TO GET THERE ABORTION.

>> Bonnie: HOW MUCH WORSE?

HOW MUCH WORSE?

>> Professor Diana: HOW MUCH WORSE?

IT'S ACTUALLY THE SADDEST FINDINGS IN THE ENTIRE STUDY ARE THAT TWO WOMEN DIED AFTER DELIVERING.

THEY DIED OF PREGNANCY-RELATED CAUSES.

AND SO, IT'S AS BAD AS IT CAN POSSIBLY BE, OBVIOUSLY, FOR THOSE TWO WOMEN.

MOSTLY, MOST WOMEN HONESTLY DID NOT DIE OF GIVING BIRTH.

BY GIVING BIRTH IS ASSOCIATED WITH A LOT OF PHYSICAL HEALTH RISKS, AND WE TEND TO DISCOUNT THOSE RISKS BECAUSE WOMEN WILLINGLY CHOOSE TO BECOME PREGNANT AND GIVE BIRTH WHEN THEY WANT A BABY.

BUT ALL OF THOSE RISKS, ASKING WOMEN TO SUBJECT THEMSELVES TO ALL OF THOSE RISKS WHEN THEY ARE NOT WANTING A BABY IS, YOU KNOW, IS NOT TO BE TAKEN LIGHTLY, AND IT'S PART OF THE REASON WHY I DON'T THINK THAT ADOPTION IS AN EASY SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM OF UNWANTED PREGNANCIES.

>> Bonnie: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT ALL OF THOSE ASPECTS.

BUT FIRST, TWO WOMEN DIED.

MAY ASK, WHERE THE BOTH OF COLOR?

BECAUSE WHEN YOU SAID THAT, A BULB WENT OFF.

THERE WERE STUDIES OUT A COUPLE YEARS AGO OVERWHELMINGLY SHOWING THAT, ESPECIALLY BLACK WOMEN, WERE A LOT MORE LIKELY TO DIE DURING PREGNANCY OR AFTER, YOU KNOW, DURING CHILDBIRTH THAN WHITE WOMEN.

SO I'M WONDERING IF, IF YOUR FINDINGS FURTHER THAT POINT.

IF SO, DO WE HAVE MORE OF A SOCIOECONOMIC ISSUE HERE THAN ANYTHING ELSE?

>> Professor Diana: THEY WERE NOT WOMEN OF COLOR, THE TWO WOMEN WHO DIED.

ABOUT ONE THIRD OF THE WOMEN IN THE ENTIRE STUDY WERE AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMEN, AND THERE ARE HEALTH RISKS ASSOCIATED WITH PREGNANCY THAT ARE NOT SOCIOECONOMIC, THAT ARE RELATED TO RACISM AND ACCESS TO HEALTHCARE.

BUT -- AND THAT MAY -- THE TWO GROUPS OF WOMEN, THOSE WHO RECEIVED AN ABORTION AND THOSE WHO WERE DENIED, WERE SIMILAR, SIMILAR PROFILE BY RACE, ETHNICITY.

AND SO, THAT DIFFERENCE BY RACE AND ETHNICITY AND SO SOON ECONOMICS DO NOT EXPLAIN THE PHYSICAL HEALTH DIFFERENCES OVER TIME.

BUT THE ISSUE THAT YOU RAISED IS SUPER IMPORTANT.

IT'S JUST NOT A PRIMARY FINDINGS OF THE STUDY, THE TWO WOMEN DID NOT HAPPEN TO BE WOMEN OF COLOR.

>> Bonnie: WHAT IN YOUR FINDINGS WOULD YOU WANT TO JUSTICE IN THE FUTURE DECIDING ON ROE V WADE DERIVATIVE CASE THAT GETS UP TO THE SUPREME COURT TO KNOW TO PERSUADE HIM OR HER TO GIVE WOMEN A WIDE LATITUDE TO CHOOSE?

>> Professor Diana: YEAH.

SO, I THINK THAT SOME OF THE IMPORTANT MESSAGES FROM THIS STUDY IS THAT WOMEN ARE MAKING CAREFUL DECISIONS WHEN THEY ARE TRYING TO DECIDE WHAT TO DO ABOUT AN UNWANTED PREGNANCY.

NOT, YOU KNOW, WOMEN OFTEN SAY THAT IT'S A HARD DECISION, BUT SOMETIMES THEY SAY ABOUT HALF THE TIME THAT IT WAS AN EASY DECISION OR STRAIGHTFORWARD.

AND I DON'T THINK THAT WE SHOULD INTERPRET THAT TO MEAN THEY TOOK THE DECISION LIGHTLY.

BUT JUST THAT THE OVERWHELMING CIRCUMSTANCES OF THEIR LIVES TOLD THEM WHICH DECISION WAS RIGHT FOR THEM.

SO, ONE IS TO TRUST WOMEN'S DECISION-MAKING ABOUT WHAT TO DO WITH HER PREGNANCY, AND THE OTHER IS IT'S SO CLEAR THAT THE THINGS THAT WOMEN WERE CONCERNED ABOUT WHEN THEY THOUGHT ABOUT CARRYING A PREGNANCY TO TERM WERE EXPERIENCED BY THE WOMEN WHO WERE UNABLE TO GET AN ABORTION.

IT GIVES US TRUST IN THEIR DECISION-MAKING, AND IT ALSO SHOWS YOU HOW BIG AND IMPORTANT THIS ISSUE IS.

IT'S NOT JUST, YOU KNOW, HAVE A BABY AND PLACE IT FOR ADOPTION AND MOVE ON.

IS VERY FEW WOMEN CHOOSE TO PLACE THE CHILD FOR ADOPTION, LESS THAN ONE IN 10 OF THE WOMEN DENIED ABORTIONS ACTUALLY DECIDED TO PLACE A CHILD.

AND IT HAS RAMIFICATIONS FOR HER FUTURE RELATIONSHIPS, FOR HER CHANCE TO HAVE WANTED CHILDREN LATER, FOR HER ABILITY TO RAISE HER CHILDREN WITHOUT THE THREAT OF NOT HAVING ENOUGH MONEY TO PAY FOR FOOD AND HOUSING.

>> Bonnie: WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT YOUR FINDINGS THAT HERE IN 2020, ALMOST 50 YEARS AFTER ROE WAS HANDED DOWN IN THE EARLY '70s, THAT THERE STILL IS A QUESTION OF WHETHER WE SHOULD TRUST WOMEN, WE STILL QUESTION WHETHER WOMEN KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING?

WHERE DOES THAT COME FROM?

>> Professor Diana: WHEN WOMEN MAKE THIS DECISION, THEY KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT FOR THEIR FAMILIES AND FOR THEIR OWN LIFE TRAJECTORY.

SO THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT WE FOUND.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT WE DON'T TRUST WOMEN IS PARTLY A CONSEQUENCE OF NOT EVEN CONSIDERING THE WOMAN'S PERSPECTIVE IN THIS.

IT'S LIKE AN ABSTRACT DEBATE ABOUT THE MORAL STATUS OF THE FETUS AND WHETHER WOMEN SHOULD HAVE RIGHTS.

WITHOUT VIEWING WOMEN AS INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE MAKING DECISIONS, WHO HAVE RESPONSIBILITIES, WHO HAVE ASPIRATIONS, WHO ARE LIKE THE WOMEN IN OUR LIVES, WHO ARE LIKE OUR RELATIVES AND NEIGHBORS AND FRIENDS.

SO I THINK IT'S PARTLY THAT WE HAVE ABSTRACTED THIS DEBATE AND POLITICIZED IT.

AND THEN WE FAILED TO ACTUALLY CONSIDER THE REAL PEOPLE INVOLVED.

THERE WAS A GREAT SCENE FROM A DOCUMENT OR ANY BY AL JAZEERA WHERE THE INTERVIEWER ASKED JIM I THINK BUCHI WHO WAS IN OHIO STATE REPRESENTATIVE AND THE AUTHOR OF MANY RESTRICTIONS.

SHE ASKED HIM WHY A WOMAN WOULD WANT TO HAVE AN ABORTION.

AND HIS FACE, HE IS LIKE TOTALLY STUMPED, LOOKING UPWARDS FOR HELP, YOU KNOW, AND HE FINALLY SAYS, I DON'T KNOW, I'M NOT A WOMAN.

YOU KNOW, HE IS THE AUTHOR OF RESTRICTIONS ON ABORTION.

IT'S SOMETHING HE SHOULD'VE CONSIDERED.

AND THIS STUDY IS I THINK UNIQUE IN HAVING QUANTITATIVE DATA TO SHOW THAT THIS ISSUE AFFECTS A LOT OF PEOPLE AND THAT THERE ARE HARD OUTCOMES INVOLVED.

IT'S NOT AN ABSTRACT DEBATE.

IT IS AN ISSUE THAT AFFECTS REAL PEOPLE.

>> Bonnie: DO YOU THINK THOSE FINDINGS WILL AFFECT OPPONENTS OF THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE?

>> Professor Diana: I THINK YOU COULD BE MORALLY OPPOSED TO ABORTION AND STILL LEARN A LOT FROM THIS STUDY.

IT WOULD TELL YOU THAT IT'S NOT MORALLY ACCEPTABLE TO BAN ABORTION AND IGNORE ALL THE NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES THAT FALL FROM THAT, THAT THERE NEED TO BE MANY STRONGER SUPPORTS FOR POOR WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN THIS COUNTRY BEFORE IT IS MORAL TO BAN PEOPLE FROM HAVING ABORTIONS.

AND THAT THE IDEA THAT ADOPTION IS GOING TO BE EASY IS ALSO NOT BASED IN THE EVIDENCE.

WHEN WE FOLLOWED WOMEN OVER TIME, THE WOMEN, THE FEW WOMEN WHO PLACED THE CHILD FOR ADOPTION WERE MORE LIKELY TO EXPERIENCE REGRET THAT THEY HADN'T GOTTEN THE ABORTION THAN WOMEN WHO DECIDED TO PARENT.

SO IT'S, IT'S NOT EASY, AND THERE IS SOMETHING TO LEARN.

IT DOES NOT TELL YOU WHETHER ABORTION IS RIGHT OR WRONG.

IT DOES NOT TELL YOU WHEN DOES LIFE BEGIN.

BUT IT TELLS YOU THE CONSEQUENCES OF RECEIVING AN ABORTION AND OF BEING DENIED.

>> Bonnie: I DO REMEMBER OVER HAVING FOLLOWED THIS ISSUE FOR MANY, MANY DECADES NOW, I DO REMEMBER THERE WAS A TIME 20, 30 YEARS AGO WHEN ANTIABORTION CONSERVATIVES WERE PUTTING OUT THAT IF YOU HAD AN ABORTION, YOU WERE MORE LIKELY TO COME DOWN WITH BREAST CANCER.

AND THAT, OF COURSE, TURNED OUT -- AND THE MEDIA COVERAGE OF THEIR SUPPOSE IT FINDING IN THE FIRST PLACE WAS MUCH GREATER THAN THE MEDIA COVERAGE OF THE FACT THAT THEY WERE WRONG.

YOU LOOK IN YOUR SURVEY TO THE MEDICAL , THE FUTURE OF MEDICAL IMPACT OF ABORTION.

WHAT WERE YOUR FINDINGS THERE?

>> Professor Diana: YEAH.

SO, THE MEDICAL LITERATURE, THE DATA ON ABORTION COMPLICATIONS IS ROBUST.T DID NOT NEED THIS ONE STUDY.

BUT I CONFIRM WHAT WE SEE IN THE MEDICAL LITERATURE, WHICH IS THAT ABORTION IS ASSOCIATED WITH A VERY LOW COMPLICATION RATES.

THE SERIOUS COMPLICATIONS ALL CAME FROM -- POTENTIALLY LIFE-THREATENING COMPLICATIONS ALL WERE EXPERIENCED BY THE WOMEN WHO CARRIED THE PREGNANCY TO TERM.

AND -- I'M SORRY, WERE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO BE EXPERIENCED BY WOMEN WHO CARRIED THE PREGNANCY TO TERM -- >> Bonnie: SO YOU ARE SAYING ABORTION IS SAFER THAN HAVING A BABY?

>> Professor Diana: YEAH.

THE MEDICAL LITERATURE SHOWS THAT ABORTION IS -- THAT BIRTH IS ASSOCIATED WITH 14 TIMES HIGHER RISK OF DEATH THAN ABORTION.

AND WE DON'T HAVE -- THIS WAS NOT THE STUDY TO GENERATE THOSE STATISTICS, BUT OUR FINDINGS ARE CONSISTENT WITH THAT.

>> Bonnie: HOW RELEVANT TODAY MEDICALLY IS ABORTION?

I ASKED THAT, AND I MEAN SURGICAL ABORTION AS OPPOSED TO, AS OPPOSED TO PHARMACEUTICAL ABORTION, IF YOU WILL?

OBVIOUSLY, WHEN ROE V WADE WAS HANDED DOWN, THERE WAS NO RU-486 OR PLAN B.

AND MANY, MANY MILLENNIA WOMEN AND YOUNGER WOMEN ARE GOING ONLINE, GETTING PRESCRIPTIONS FOR AND USING THOSE MEDICATIONS THAT YOU DON'T NEED TO GO SEE A DOCTOR FOR IN MOST INSTANCES.

SO ABORTION ITSELF, SURGICAL ABORTION, HOW NECESSARY IS IT TODAY TOO.

>> Professor Diana: INCREASINGLY -- FIRST OF ALL, WHEN QUICK CORRECTION: PLAN B IS NOT AN ABORTED PATIENT.

IT'S EMERGENCY CONTRACEPTION.

IT DOES NOT PREVENT PREGNANCY.

IF THE WOMAN IS ALREADY OVULATED, SO SHE'S PREGNANT IT WILL NOT INTERRUPT THE PREGNANCY.UT RU-486 OR MEDICATION ABORTION, WE SAID, AND THAT'S IN MY HOSPITAL, NOT PLAN B. SURGICAL ABORTION IS STILL IMPORTANT.

THERE IS AN INCREASE IN MEDICATION ABORTION OVER TIME, A DRAMATIC, WE'VE EXPERIENCED IN THIS COUNTRY A DRAMATIC INCREASE WHERE PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTING ABORTIONS AND CLINICS ARE ACTUALLY INCREASINGLY LIKELY TO BE GETTING PILLS AND NOT HAVING A PROCEDURE DONE.

UT FOR LATER ABORTIONS, IT'S STILL A PROCEDURE AND NOVEL MEDICATION.

>> Bonnie: BUT LATER -- I MEAN, AT LEAST THE PRO-CHOICE MOVEMENT HAS ALWAYS SAID THAT LATE TERM ABORTIONS, THIRD TRIMESTER ABORTIONS ARE KIND OF A RED HERRING BECAUSE THEY ARE SUCH A MINUTE PERCENTAGE OF THE ABORTIONS THAT TAKE PLACE, AND IT USUALLY HAS TO DO WITH A FETUS THAT WILL DIE IN THE WOMB ANYWAY, A FETUS THAT HAS INCREDIBLE MEDICAL CHALLENGES, THAT SORT OF THING.

SO, ISN'T THAT STILL, EVEN IF YOU TAKE SECOND TRIMESTER ABORTIONS INTO ACCOUNT, AREN'T THEY STILL WAY LOWER THAN MEDICAL ABORTIONS ARE?

>> Professor Diana: THE, THE -- THERE HAS BEEN AN INCREASE IN MEDICATION ABORTION OVERTIME.

MEDICATION ABORTIONS TEND TO BE USED UP UNTIL AROUND 11 WEEKS, I THINK, BUT I'M NOT A PHYSICIAN OR A NURSE.

SO WE CAN ALL GO-- >> Professor Diana: BUT FIRST TRIMESTER.

>> Professor Diana: YEAH.

NOT EVEN UNTIL THE END OF THE FIRST TRIMESTER.

SO IN EARLY ABORTION, NOW MEDICATION ABORTION IS AN OPTION.

LOTS OF RESTRICTIONS, STATE IMPOSED RESTRICTIONS ON ABORTION HAVE THE EFFECT OF SLOWING WOMEN DOWN AND MAKING IT LESS LIKELY THAT SHE CAN EVEN CHOOSE TO HAVE A MEDICATION ABORTION.

WE'VE HAD HUNDREDS OF RESTRICTIONS IN THE LAST DECADE IMPOSED BY STATES THAT, THAT HAVE THE EFFECT OF CLOSING CLINICS, MAKING WOMEN TRAVEL FURTHER, AND SLOWING THEM DOWN.

IT'S ALSO QUITE POSSIBLE THAT THOSE LAWS PREVENT MANY WOMEN FROM GETTING AN ABORTION.

THIS IDEA THAT YOU CANNOT PREVENT ABORTIONS, YOU CAN ONLY PREVENT SAFE ABORTIONS IS NOT TRUE.

BUT TURN AWAY STUDY WOULD NOT EXIST IF WOMEN WERE ALWAYS ABLE SOMEHOW TO MAGICALLY GET THE ABORTIONS THEY SEEK.> Bonnie: HOW MANY -- WELL, THIS MAY BE BEYOND YOUR KNOWLEDGE, BUT LET ME ASK IT ANYWAY: HOW MANY WOMEN NOW LIVE IN STATES -- I THINK I'VE HEARD OF THE USE OF NUMBERS SUCH AS 17 OR 18 STATES WHERE ABORTION IS NOT PROVIDED ANY WAY, WHERE THERE ARE NO -- NO OB/GYN'S WHO OFFER ABORTIONS IN THAT STATE AND THAT THEY EITHER HAVE TO WAIT FOR DOCTORS TO FLY IN FROM OTHER STATES WHERE THEY, THE WOMEN, HAVE TO GO TO OTHER STATES, AND MANY OF THEM ARE IN THE WESTERN STATES, HUGE STATES WHERE TRAVELING MUCH FURTHER DISTANCES THAN THEY DO ON THE EAST COAST, FOR EXAMPLE, JUST TO OBTAIN AN ABORTION, IF THEY CAN GET THE DOCTOR TO DO IT.

>> Professor Diana: YEAH.

I DON'T THINK THERE ARE MANY STATES WHERE THERE ARE NO DOCTORS OR NEW CLINICS.

THERE ARE SEVERAL STATES THAT ONLY HAVE ONE ABORTION FACILITY.

AND CERTAINLY, THERE IS A LOT OF INTERSTATE TRAVEL BECAUSE OF ABORTION RESTRICTIONS, BECAUSE WOMEN ARE TRYING TO GO TO THE CLOSEST WANT IN THE CLOSEST WANT MAY BE ACROSS THE STATE BORDERBORTION ACCESS IS, IS SORT OF A NIGHTMARE IN AMERICA.

AND I HAVE TO SAY EVEN IN THE NORTHEAST WHERE THERE MAY BE MORE PROVIDERS, IT IS NOT EASY FOR EVERYONE.

IMAGINE BEING A YOUNG WOMAN WITHOUT A DRIVERS LICENSE, WITHOUT A CAR, WITHOUT A LOT OF CASH, WHERE YOU NEED YOUR PARENTS' PERMISSION AND YOU DON'T LIVE WITH THEIR PARENTS.

YOU KNOW, YOU CAN IMAGINE THAT ABORTION IS NOT EASY, CAN BE VERY, VERY DIFFICULT TO ACCESS EVEN UNDER THE BEST CIRCUMSTANCES.

>> Bonnie: NOW, USING YOUR FINDINGS, HOW WOULD YOU LIKE POLICYMAKERS, MEMBERS OF CONGRESS, JUDGES ON COURTS OF APPEALS, ETC., TO LOOK AT YOUR REPORT AND USE THE REPORT, IF THEY DO?

>> Professor Diana: YEAH.

SO THERE IS A 262016 SUPREME COURT CASE, WHOLE WOMEN'S HEALTH VERSUS A STAT, AND IT BANNED ONE TYPE OF ABORTION RESTRICTION IN TEXAS.

IN ONE OF THE BEAUTIFUL THINGS FROM THAT RULING -- SORRY SORRY, THAT WAS IT SAID THAT THE RESTRICTION WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

BUT ONE OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT DECISION WAS TO SAY THAT ABORTION RESTRICTIONS SHOULD BE BASED IN EVIDENCE, AND IT'S NOT ENOUGH FOR A STATE LEGISLATOR TO SAY, HEY, THIS WOULD IMPROVE SAFETY.

THEY ACTUALLY HAD TO SHOW THAT THE RESTRICTION WOULD HAVE A NET EFFECT OF IMPROVING WOMEN'S HEALTH OR WELL-BEING.

AND IF WE STICK WITH THAT WHOLE WOMEN'S HEALTH DECISION, THIS TURN AWAY STUDY IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT SHOWS THAT WHEN WOMEN ARE DENIED ABORTIONS AND WHEN ABORTION IS TOO DIFFICULT TO ACCESS, IT HAS SERIOUS RAMIFICATIONS ON HER ECONOMIC WELL-BEING, HER CHILDREN'S ECONOMIC WELL-BEING, AND HER LIFE TRAJECTORY, HER CHANCE OF SETTING ASPIRATIONAL GOALS AND ACHIEVING THEM, HER CHANCE OF HAVING A FULL-TIME JOB, HER CHANCE OF HAVING A GOOD, HIGH-QUALITY ROMANTIC RELATIONSHIP LATER, AND HER CHANCE OF HAVING AN UNINTENDED PREGNANCY LATER.

SO, IF WE ARE WEIGHING THE EVIDENCE, WE WOULD -- FIRST WE WENT THROUGHOUT THE HYDE AMENDMENT WHICH RESTRICTS FUNDING FOR LOW INCOME WOMEN'S ABORTION!

THAT IS A LAW THAT IS UNFAIR AND CREATES LOTS OF UNINTENDED NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES.

SO THE HYDE AMENDMENT -- >> Bonnie: THAT HAS BEEN THE LAW OF THE UNITED STATES SINCE -- FOR AT LEAST FIVE, MAYBE SIX DECADES?

>> Professor Diana: YEAH.

I'M NOT-- I DON'T I WOULD HAVE TO LOOK UP THE EXACT HISTORY, BUT HAS A VERY NEGATIVE AFFECT, FOR SURE, NOW.

AND WE WOULD RE-EXAMINE HOW WE, HOW WE TRY AND REGULATE ACCESS TO BOTH CONTRACEPTION AND ABORTION TO HAVE THE LAWS BE MORE IN LINE WITH WHAT IS KNOWN ABOUT SAFETY AND LESS FOR POLITICAL GRANDSTANDING.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

WELL, DR. DIANA GREENE FOSTER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS.

IT'S GOING TO BE A DIFFICULT CLIMB, I'M SURE, GIVING YOUR REPORT OUT THERE TO THE PUBLIC.

UT IT IS A FASCINATING REPORT, AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT POLICYMAKERS SHOULD AT LEAST TAKE A LOOK AT OR KNOW THAT IT'S OUT THERE FOR THEIR USE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> Professor Diana: THANK YOU.

>> Bonnie: FASCINATING WORK ON THIS STUDY.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION OF "TO THE CONTRARY".

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

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